tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jun 02 17:44:37 2006

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Re: Questions in tlhIngan syntax (II) Double superlatives???

Jesse Morales ([email protected]) 

Stevenvo'
>We don't know, but I suspect not.  Okrand on using idioms:
>
>    These expressions that cannot be interpreted properly from the
>    individual meanings of their components are idioms To understand
>    an idiom, one must learn the phrase as a whole. <...> In using an
>    idiom, one must repeat it exactly; paraphrases will be interpreted
>    literally, not in the idiomatic sense.  (KGT 106)
>
>If a Klingon would say this at all, it would probably be understood as an
>example of {mu'mey ru'} "temporary words", i.e. one-time ungrammatical
>phrases uttered for rhetorical effect.  Read the section on "Intentional
>Ungrammaticality" in KGT (pp. 176-181), especially the part on variations
>of the {law'/puS} formula (pp. 178-180).  If you don't have KGT, here's an
>extract:
>
>    Another kind of bending of the grammar involves the comparative
>    construction <...> As a form of word play, antonyms (that is, words
>    with opposite meanings) other than {law'} and {puS} are sometimes
>    plugged into the formula. The resulting phrases literally make no
>    sense at all, but because of the uniqueness of the {law'/puS} phrases
>    within Klingon grammar, they are always understood. Constructions
>    such as the following might be heard, all meaning, thought not
>    literally, "The Klingon is braver than the Ferengi":
>
>       tlhIngan yoH HoS verengan yoH puj.
>       tlhIngan yoH pIv verengan yoH rop.
>       tlhIngan yoH Daj verengan yoH qetlh.
>
>    Such fanciful use of words is found with the superlative construction
>    (something is the most or the best) as well. <...> It is possible,
>    however, for rhetorical effect, to say such things as {tlhIngan yoH
>    HoS Hoch yoH puj} <...> If one state of affairs is not inherently
>    better or worse than its opposite, the terms may occur in either order.
>    Once again comparing the brave Klingon and the not-so-brave Ferengi:
>
>       tlhIngan yoH jen verengan yoH 'eS
>       tlhIngan yoH 'eS verengan yoH jen.
>
>       tlhIngan yoH ghegh verengan yoH Hab
>       tlhIngan yoH Hab verengan yoH ghegh.
>
>    Some conditions, on the other hand, are more highly regarded than
>    others. In those instances, it is essential to get the terms in the
>    correct order. For example, among Klingons, a task that is difficult
>    ({Qatlh}) is more highly valued than one that is easy ({ngeD}).
>    Accordingly, in these creative comparative and superlative construc-
>    tions, {Qatlh} is associated with the quality that is "many" and
>    {ngeD} with the quality that is "few". To say "The Klingon is braver
>    than the Ferengi," one would have to say {tlhIngan yoH Qatlh verengan
>    yoH ngeD}. Reversing the order of {Qatlh} and {ngeD} would produce
>    the phrase {tlhIngan yoH ngeD verengan yoH Qatlh}, which, if inter-
>    pretable at all, would mean "The Klingon is less brave than the
>    Ferengi." Even if one really meant it, uttering such a phrase could
>    lead to unfortunate consequences.

Thank you for all the info!
I don't have a "Klingon for the Galactic Traveler" yet.

>I've never heard of double superlatives.  What is the difference between
>"boldest of all" and "most boldest of all"?  To me both the English and
>Klingon sound ungrammatical or - for the descriptive linguists - 
>uneducated.

Your thoughts on the grammaticality of the English is understandable 
considering
such expressions persist today only in nonstandard dialects.

Perhaps the notion of double-superlatives, subsisting for implication of 
'double' emphases, can't or rather shouldn't be something translated.

lay'telvo'
>In all of these examples, it's the {law'/puS} pair that is modified, not 
>the
>verb of quality, which is the same in each half of the construction.
>I couldn't find any examples of the verb of quality having a suffix.

Thanks for the help, lay'tel and Steven.
This is a great forum tlhIngan discussion and acquisition.

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