tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Feb 26 15:21:10 2004

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Re: [tlhIngan-Hol] Sechmey, Hutvaghmey, wotmey, DIpvaD tam <net> je

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

QeS lagh wrote:
>While I was writing the section above about the use of <Hutvagh>, I came up
>against a problem. I was planning to say
>
>  qechvam'e' ja'lu' neHlu'chugh
>  "if someone wants to report this idea"
>
>But I got a bit confused from there. Now, I know that <'e'> is replaced with
><net> when the subject of the verb governing <'e'> is indefinite. Thus:
>
>  yoH tlhInganpu' 'e' vISov
>  "I know that Klingons are brave"
>
>  yoH tlhInganpu' net Sov
>  "It is known that Klingons are brave"
>  (and not *<yoH tlhInganpu' 'e' Sovlu'>)
>
>However, what happens when the verb in question is <neH>, which doesn't use
><'e'> at all?  As I see it, there are two choices:
>
>  ??qechvam'e' ja'lu' neHlu'chugh   OR
>  ??qechvam'e' ja'lu' net neHchugh
>  "if someone wants to report this idea"

These sound like "if one wants the idea to be reported by someone or 
something".

>I am swaying towards the version with <net>, but I am quite unsure (due in
>part to the unusual behaviour of <neH>).  qechmeyraj vIQoychu'.

You're making this far too complicated.  You don't need all these {-lu'}s 
or even {net}.  {-lu'} "is used to indicate that the subject is unknown, 
indefinite, and/or general" (TKD p.38) and many of Okrand's examples there 
use "someone/something".  The someone you want may be unknown, but s/he is 
not "indefinite, and/or general"; you have a specific, if unknown, someone 
in mind.  For that, use the noun {vay'} "someone, anyone":

   qechvam ja' neHchugh vay'
   if someone wants to report this idea

   qechvam'e' ja' neHchugh vay'
   if someone wants to report this particular idea
   as for this idea, if someone wants to report it

Whenever you translate "someone", don't automatically think {-lu'} or 
{net}.  Consider using {vay'}.

Okrand discusses an example of this in KGT (p.181):

   Among those suffixes that can never occur together are {-lu'}
   (indefinite subject indicator) and {-laH} (can, able). The
   former is used when the subject is unknown or indefinite, often
   translated into Federation Standard by means of the passive voice:
   {jagh jonlu'} ("One captures the enemy", or "The enemy is captured").
   The latter is used to express ability: {jagh jonlaH} ("He/she can
   capture the enemy"). If it is desirable to express the ideas of
   "indefinite subject" and "ability" at the same time, such as in the
   sentences "One can capture the enemy" or "The enemy can be captured,"
   it is not uncommon to use the noun {vay'} ("somebody, anybody") as
   the subject of the sentence: {jagh jonlaH vay'} ("Somebody can
   capture the enemy", or "Anybody can capture the enemy").

Here are some more examples of {vay'} to study:

   naDev vay' DaSov'a'
   Do you know anyone here? CK

   naDev vay' vISovbe'
   I don't know anyone here. CK

   yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
   this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the Unforgettable. S8

"Kahless, whom someone cannot forget"

   wej Heghchugh vay', SuvtaH SuvwI'
   A warrior fights to the death
  ("If someone has not yet died, a warrior keeps on fighting"). TKW

   vay' DaghIjlaHchugh bIHoSghaj
   Fear is power. TKW

"If you can scare someone, you are powerful."

   batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay'
   An honorable death requires no vengeance. TKW

An example of {-lu'} and {vay'} together:  "If one has died honorably, 
someone does not need to seek revenge."

   pIj monchugh vay' yIvoqQo'
   Don't trust those who frequently smile. TKW

"If someone smiles frequently, don't trust him/her."

   chIch vay' 'oy'moHmeH 'oy'naQ 'ul law' tlhuD 'oH
   Painstiks... emit a highly-charged shock for the express purpose of 
inflicting pain. S32

"In order for the painstik to cause someone pain on purpose..."



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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