tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 08 19:03:14 2004

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Re: nom ghel, nom jang

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: <[email protected]>

> > > qugh mu''e'
>
> > Am I the only one who cringes whenever people stick {mu'} in apposition
with
> > the word in question?
>
> DaHjaj bIqej.

chonoHHa'pu'.  DaHjaj jIqejbe'.

>  yIqel:
>
> > > > 'ach tlhIngan mIwHey lugh vISovbe'.
> > >
> > > vIjatlh 'e' vIHech je jIH.
> >
> > potlh'a' ngoDvam?  tlhIngan Hol pab tlhIngan Hol DuH ghap yISaH.  wa'
yIwIv!
>
> > > maj.  Hol ngebHa' 'oHchugh "English"-'e', Hol ngeb 'oH tlhIngan Hol'e'
> > vaj nIv mu'meylIj.
> >
> > ngebbe' tlhIngan Hol.  Holna' 'oH.  DaH ngoDvam wItobtaH: maQummeH
tlhIngan
> > Hol wIlo'taH.
>
> cha'logh mu'lIj'e' jIQochbe'. cha'logh bIbep. qatlh? lugh'a' qechlIj
DaDelchugh SoH neH?

Eh?  chaq bIqej SoH'e'.

I had no intention of annoying anyone.  I was pointing out that Klingon is
not a "fake" language.  Why does this make me grouchy?

> > > > <Hol wa'DIch SuqtaHbogh>
> > >
> > > HIvqa' veqlargh! SuqtaH*ghach*.
> >
> > "Constant obtaining of a first language."  chatlh!  lI'Ha'chu' <-taH>
> > Dalo'pu'bogh.  <-ghach> Dalo' DaneHba'mo' mojaq Dachelta', 'ach mujlaw'.
>
> bIbepqa'. bIQochmo', chaq meq Daghaj.  'ach chatlhna' 'oH'a'?
>
> This suffix indicates that an action is ongoing. [sentences omitted]  Both
of the above
> sentences suggest a continuing activity. The meaning of -taH can be seen
clearly by
> comparing the following two commands: [sentences omitted]  In the first
case, the maneuver
> is to be executed once only. In the second, a series of evasive maneuvers
is to be executed--
> -the action is to be continuous. (TKD 4.2.7 [p.42])
>
> On the other hand, throw in the {­taH} as we were saying earlier and you
have
> {tlhutlhtaHghach}, which means <ongoing drinking> or the <process of
continuing to drink>,
> which is just fine but the English translation overemphasizes the
"continuing" part. (HolQeD
> 3:3)
>
> Hol SuqDI' puq, pe'vIl bI'chu''a'? ghobe'! qaS DISmey Suqchu'pa'.  vaj
"ongoing" 'oH.
> "continuing" 'oH. vaj lugh {-taH}.

'ach Hol SuqtaHghach'e' DaSaHtaHbe'!

We weren't talking about the acquisition of native language (at least, I
wasn't when I suggested the phrase {Hol wa'DIch}), we were talking about the
language itself.  Thus, "constant obtaining of a first language" is not a
good translation of "native language," though it is a good way to express
the idea of "native language acquisition."

> yIqel:
>
> qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'.  ghoHtah je. tIv'eghtaH
je.  vaj
> SuquvmoH. (msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand, November 10, 1996)
> {-taH} lo' MO. 'ach qaStaHvIS qep'a', qaS jajmey. qep'a'Daq, rut Qong
jeSwI'.  vaj qaS
> ta'mey, qaS len. qaS ta'mey, qaS len.

Huh?  chay' potlh ngoDvam?  'ej Duja' 'Iv: Qoch SuStel?

I don't know why you took my message the wrong way, but this really has
nothing to do with what I said.  I think you saw something completely
different than what I intended.

> tlhoy DI'vI' Hol mu' , <-taH> je DaboqmoH. wa' DI'vI' Hol mu' neH 'oSbe'
{-taH}.

wa' DIvI' Hol mu' 'oS not jIjatlh rIntaH.

>{-ghach} Daparba'mo', {-ghach} lo'lu', reH muj 'e' DaQub.  'ach rut lugh.

<-ghach> vIpar not jIjatlhpu'.  rut 'e' lumaqpu' latlh 'ej jIQoch.

<-ghach> lo'Ha'lu'chugh, wanI' vIpar.

I am one of the people who occasionally asks why everyone's so down on
{-ghach}.  The only time I ever say anything against it is when people add
{-taH} to it just so they can use it.

Did you mean {-taH}?  Did you REALLY mean {-taH}?  If so, use it.  If not,
don't try to find some flimsy justification to use it; find some other way
to express the sentence.

When Okrand says that the "ongoing drinking" overemphasizes the "ongoing"
part, he's not saying taht {tlhutlhtaHghach} doesn't mean "ongoing
drinking," he's saying that the English translation is not a natural way to
say the concept.  That's still what it means.  {tlhutlhtaHghach} cannot
refer to one swig of ale.

jIqejbe' 'e' yIHar, 'ej ghIq QInwIj yIlaDqa'.

SuStel
Stardate 4106.7

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