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Fw: Problem with {-meH} and negative meanings

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Qermaq

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Okrand <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: startrek.expertforum
Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 05:42 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with {-meH} and negative meanings


>[Shortly before the old MSN forum on the Klingon language disappeared (to
be
>replaced by this new newsgroup), a message was posted there titled "Problem
>with {-meH} and negative meanings."  I wasn't able to write a response to
it
>before the changeover, so, rather than just leaving that message floating
>around in some sort of limbo, I'm posting the response to it here.
>- Marc]
>
>
>Will Martin wrote...
>
>>I have a new approach to an old nagging problem in the language. There is
>>a temptation to translate "I was too late to visit you," as {qaSuchmeH
>>jIpaSqu'.} Meanwhile, to me, this sounds like I'm saying that I was
>>intentionally very late with the goal of my tardiness being that I visit
>>you.
>>
>>Instead, these days, I translate this sort of thing as: {qaSuch vIneH
>>'ach jIpaSqu'.} The contrast between the conjoined sentences implied in
>>{'ach} seems to carry for me the sense that the latter fact conflicted
>>with the former intent.
>>
>>Does this seem like an improved approach to you, or do you think there
>was
>no problem with the first version using {-meH}?
>
>
>I can understand why you've been feeling nagged about this.  There are, I
>think, a couple of issues.
>
>First, we have to figure out what "I was too late to visit you" means.  It
>could mean (a) I came to visit you, but by the time I got there, you had
>left or were indisposed; or (b) I didn't come to visit you because I spent
a
>long time, perhaps longer than expected, doing something else and by the
>time I was freed up to visit you, it was too late for you or for me or for
>both of us.  In any event, because I arrived past some sort of cutoff point
>(or because I wasn't ready to set out until that cutoff point had passed),
>the visit did not take place.  This cutoff point could be a specific time
of
>day (12 midnight, perhaps), or an event that occurs at a certain time
>(visiting hours end at 6:00), or even an unscheduled event (a better offer
>came along and you left before I got there).
>
>I don't think that the first approach ({qaSuchmeH jIpaSqu'}) conveys the
>intended meaning as described above (if I'm right in my description of the
>intended meaning; if I'm not, all the rest of this discussion might not be
>answering the right question!).  The two words in the sentence are:
>
>    {qaSuchmeH} "in order that I visit you" (made up of {qa-} "I [do
>something to] you," {Such} "visit," {-meH} "for")
>
>    {jIpaSqu'} "I am very late" (made up of {jI-} "I," {paS} "be late,"
>{-qu'} "emphatic")
>
>Perhaps, then, a better English rendition of the Klingon sentence is "In
>order for me to visit you, I'll be very late."   This suggests that the
>visit did or will take place (though later, perhaps, than desired), which
is
>not the intended meaning.
>
>The second approach suggests using the sentence {qaSuch vIneH 'ach
jIpaSqu'}
>"I want to visit you, but I am very late," which is made up of:
>
>    {qaSuch} "I visit you" ({qa-} "I [do something to] you," {Such}
"visit")
>
>    {vIneH} "I want it" ({vI-} "I [do something to] it," {neH} "want")
>
>    {'ach} "but, however"
>
>    {jIpaSqu'} "I am very late" (as above)
>
>This also could mean that the visit will take place: My being late is
>inconvenient, but we'll visit anyway.
>
>In both approaches, the phrase "I was too late" (of the original sentence
"I
>was too late to visit you") is translated {jIpaSqu'}.  The prefix {jI-}, of
>course, is the "I" and there's no problem there.  {paSqu'} (that is, {paS}
>"be late" plus the rover {-qu'} "emphatic"), then, is being used for "too
>late."   {-qu'} is usually translated "very" or "extremely" or the like
>(that is, {paSqu'} means "very late"), so if "too late" means "very late,"
>all is well.  But in the example sentence ("I was too late to visit you"),
>the phrase "too late" doesn't mean "very late"; it means "excessively late"
>or "overly late."  Thus using {paSqu'} might not be the best course in the
>first place.  It doesn't get across the idea of going beyond some cutoff
>point.
>
>I'd probably take an idiomatic approach incorporating the phrase {nargh
>'eb} "the opportunity escapes" ({nargh} "escape," {'eb} "opportunity").
>This goes along with other expressions such as {'eb jon} "he/she captures
>the opportunity" or, more colloquially "he/she seizes the opportunity"
>({jon} "capture").
>
>This presents a number of options (there are certainly others):
>
>    {jIpaSqu'mo' narghpu' qaSuchmeH 'eb.} "Because I'm very late, the
>opportunity to visit you has escaped."  ({-mo'} "because," {narghpu'} "has
>escaped," {qaSuchmeH 'eb} "opportunity for me to visit you")
>
>    {qaSuch vIneH 'ach narghpu' 'eb.  jIpaSqu'.} "I want to visit you, but
>the opportunity has escaped.  I am very late."
>
>    {qaSuchlaHbe'.  jIpaSqu' vaj narghpu' 'eb.}  "I cannot visit you. I am
>very late, thus the opportunity has escaped."   ({qaSuchlaHbe'} "I cannot
>visit you" [{-laH} "can, able," {-be'} "negative"], vaj "thus")
>
>I hope this helps with the "I was too late to visit you" problem.  I don't
>know if it will help with the more general problem of "{-meH} and negative
>meanings," which is the topic of the original posting.
>
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