tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jan 19 12:13:04 1998

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Re: Fw: Problem with {-meH} and negative meanings

According to Qermaq:
> 
> Here's the latest from MO on our new forum - news://startrek.expertforum
> 
> Qermaq

Thanks. I would have missed it. I'm dropping my MSN membership
because Okrand was the only thing of interest it really offered
me and I have not yet set up another source for a news reader,
so I'm temporarily walled off from any NEWS lists. I really
hate the slow, noisy glitter of MSN. It invades my PC every
time I access it and is the only piece of software that
disallows a normal shutdown of my system. I have to turn the
power off to kill whatever background runaway process they
leave littering my RAM.

It is nice to see that he finally replied. I like his answer,
too. I'll have to consider how well it can be generalized or at
least how it can provide a rough template for recasting.

The rest, I write addressed as if to Marc Okrand, shared with
all.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Okrand <[email protected]>
> Newsgroups: startrek.expertforum
> Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 05:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Problem with {-meH} and negative meanings
> 
> 
> >charghwI' wrote...
> >
> >>I have a new approach to an old nagging problem in the language. There is
> >>a temptation to translate "I was too late to visit you," as {qaSuchmeH
> >>jIpaSqu'.} Meanwhile, to me, this sounds like I'm saying that I was
> >>intentionally very late with the goal of my tardiness being that I visit
> >>you.
> >>
> >>Instead, these days, I translate this sort of thing as: {qaSuch vIneH
> >>'ach jIpaSqu'.}...
> >
> >I can understand why you've been feeling nagged about this.  There are, I
> >think, a couple of issues...
> >
> >I don't think that the first approach ({qaSuchmeH jIpaSqu'}) conveys the
> >intended meaning as described above (if I'm right in my description of the
> >intended meaning;...
> >
> >The second approach suggests using the sentence {qaSuch vIneH 'ach
> jIpaSqu'}
> >"I want to visit you, but I am very late,"...
> >
> >This also could mean that the visit will take place: My being late is
> >inconvenient, but we'll visit anyway.
> >
> >In both approaches, the phrase "I was too late" (of the original sentence
> "I
> >was too late to visit you") is translated {jIpaSqu'}.  The prefix {jI-}, of
> >course, is the "I" and there's no problem there.  {paSqu'} (that is, {paS}
> >"be late" plus the rover {-qu'} "emphatic"), then, is being used for "too
> >late."   {-qu'} is usually translated "very" or "extremely" or the like
> >(that is, {paSqu'} means "very late"), so if "too late" means "very late,"
> >all is well.  

I've been bothered by this for a long time. I've seen canonical
examples of {-qu'} translated both as "very" and as "too" and
could not see a way of making it clear which meaning was
intended. {tujqu'choH QuQ} = "The engine is overheating".
"Overheat" doesn't just mean it is very hot. It means it is TOO
hot. I prefer that we stick to "very" and come up with a
clearer way to express "too", which is exactly what you have
done. I'm pleased.

> >But in the example sentence ("I was too late to visit you"),
> >the phrase "too late" doesn't mean "very late"; it means "excessively late"
> >or "overly late."  Thus using {paSqu'} might not be the best course in the
> >first place.  It doesn't get across the idea of going beyond some cutoff
> >point.

maj.

> >I'd probably take an idiomatic approach incorporating the phrase {nargh
> >'eb} "the opportunity escapes" ({nargh} "escape," {'eb} "opportunity").
> >This goes along with other expressions such as {'eb jon} "he/she captures
> >the opportunity" or, more colloquially "he/she seizes the opportunity"
> >({jon} "capture").

majQa'! And it fits the work you have been doing most lately in
KGT, making it a somewhat more natural language where whole
phrases become symbols rather than words being the only unit
which carries meaning.

> >This presents a number of options (there are certainly others):
> >
> >    {jIpaSqu'mo' narghpu' qaSuchmeH 'eb.} "Because I'm very late, the
> >opportunity to visit you has escaped." ... 

Certainly, this is the most concise way to say this. Well done!

> >    {qaSuch vIneH 'ach narghpu' 'eb.  jIpaSqu'.} "I want to visit you, but
> >the opportunity has escaped.  I am very late."

This is slightly less concise, but has a more natural sound to
it. I think it could be understood with less of a pause. {-meH}
clauses modifying nouns are fine, but rare enough that it takes
a little longer to parse them.

> >    {qaSuchlaHbe'.  jIpaSqu' vaj narghpu' 'eb.}  "I cannot visit you. I am
> >very late, thus the opportunity has escaped."...

This is another natural sounding way to express this. It even
has a slight edge of poetry to it. It sounds more dramatic,
which would probably suit an apology well.

> >I hope this helps with the "I was too late to visit you" problem.  I don't
> >know if it will help with the more general problem of "{-meH} and negative
> >meanings," which is the topic of the original posting.

It definitely helps. It both solves a particular class of
problems in recasting and encourages me even more that the
language, as young as it is, has a great capacity through
recasting by a skilled mind.

qatlho'neS.

charghwI'

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