tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Feb 09 12:15:43 1998
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Re: introduction
ghItlh Albert Arendsen
> >It is not the "g" that I'm concerned about. It is that you use
> >the same letter "r" in two different types of places here. In
> >one place, it is related to the {gh} sound. In the other place
> >it is related to the {r} sound. If your {r} is somehow involved
> >in your {gh}, then at least one of these two sounds is being
> >badly mispronounced. The Klingon {r} happens at the tip of the
> >tongue, not the back.
>
>
> no no no.... you have to understand the pronounciation of Dutch to
> understand this one. the Dutch {r} can be pronounced in two ways: as the
> Klingon {r} (trilling the tounge against the top of the mouth), or very
> similar to the Klingon {gh} (gargling the uvula against the back of the
> toungue). any Dutchman will understand that the {r} in a {gr} or {rg} series
> of letters is the one prounounced in that second way. and yes, most Dutch
> pronounce all their {r}s the "gargling way", but afaik the official way is
> trilling the toungue...
I agree with Chakotay. The problem is (for me anyway) to tear the
trilling "r" and the gargling "r" apart. NOT to tear the "gh" and the
gargling "r" apart. They're two *completely* different sounds,
whereas trilling or gargling the "r" don't sound differently to me.
Unfortunately, I'm used to gargling it, and it isn't easy to change
that. But that doesn't make the gargling "r" and the "gh" sound less
distinct. The only point I wanted to make is, that when I pronounce
the "gh" in Dutch, it is very smooth. When I pronounce it in Klingon,
it isn't. It sounds more like a growl, and *only* to make the
distinction, I wrote "ghr". It's not that it sounds like an "r"; it
sounds like "gh" and a little bit of "r".
> >> > Still, trilled or not, the {r} sound is shaped by the tip of
> >> > the tongue while the {gh} sound is shaped by the back of the
> >> > throat. It is not as deep as the {Q} sound, but it is
> >> > definitely shaped by the throat and not the tongue tip.
> >> >
> >> > So, I don't care HOW you pronunce a Dutch "r", there is no such
> >> > thing as an "r" sound that can exist both in {r} and in {gh}
> >> > such that {ghargh} can be pronounced as "grargr".
> >>
> >> Well, still there is...
> >> At least, if you "mispronounce" "r" as I do. :)
> >
> >I know that if your {r} sounds like your {gh}, I won't be able
> >to understand you in Klingon.
You will. If I had a microphone, I'd record an "r" and a "gh" for you
and put 'em on my homepage... But I assure you, I have to distinguish
between gargling "r" and "gh" every single day and I have never had
any problems with it.
> again those two different pronounciations of the Dutch {r}... one letter,
> two different pronounciations, and both pronounciations mean exactly the
> same.
And sound almost alike.
> >> For some reason, I always make an "r" in the back of my mouth. I'm
> >> not a linguist, but I believe I do it by trilling my... erm... wha't
> >> it called... well, you know, that hanging blob at the back of the
> >> mouth you always see in cartoons when sombody's yelling. I trill that
> >> against the back of my tongue, I think. I think this is the wrong "r"
> >> pronounciation Chakotay mentioned. I have tried once to trill with
> >> my tongue to make an "r" sound, but I somehow couldn't. And neither
> >> can most people I know (at least they don't). And still it *sounds*
> >> like a trilling "r".
> >
> >If you can rent the video, "My Fair Lady" in English, listen to
> >the way they sing, "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the
> >plain." They trill the "r" in "rain", once she gets the hang of
> >it, anyway. Meanwhile, the trill is not all that important. The
> >keyword in "lightly trill" is "lightly", and Okrand doesn't
> >always trill his "r"s. He does, however, always pronounce his
> >"r" shaped by the tip of his tongue rather than the back of it.
> >This is basically an American "r".
I know how a trilled "r" sounds. My mother sometimes makes one (never
when speaking casually). She has learned it in a later stage, and
still doesn't do it right. I've tried too, and never got an "r" out
of it. It usually became "l-l-l-l" or "d-d-d-d" or something :)
> >> But from this "wrong" "r", it isn't difficult to go to a "gh" at all.
> >
> >Which suggests that you need to work on your {r}...
No; the distiction is, as I said before, quite clear.
>
> nope. YOU should work on understanding what we've been writing about. it's
> been about two different pronounciations of the {r} all along, and all along
> it has been said that both of those are used in/by Dutch according to their
> own discression.
>
> >> > > (Amazing, all those discussions just about *one* letter in the
> >> > > alphabet... :)
> >> >
> >> > Without it, my name becomes {charwI'}. I don't respond well to
> >> > that.
I can imagine that. But then again, we have words like "erg", "er" and
"eg". Someone using a gargling "r" can still be understood, even when
no context is provided.
(If I randomly said one of these words to anyone, s/he'd be able to
tell which one I said.
/Doneq
______
jeghbe' tlhInganpu'