tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Feb 09 14:43:08 1998
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Re: introduction
- From: "Albert Arendsen" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: introduction
- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:39:58 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Doneq <[email protected]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 22:03 uur
Subject: Re: introduction
>ghItlh Albert Arendsen
>
>> >It is not the "g" that I'm concerned about. It is that you use
>> >the same letter "r" in two different types of places here. In
>> >one place, it is related to the {gh} sound. In the other place
>> >it is related to the {r} sound. If your {r} is somehow involved
>> >in your {gh}, then at least one of these two sounds is being
>> >badly mispronounced. The Klingon {r} happens at the tip of the
>> >tongue, not the back.
>>
>>
>> no no no.... you have to understand the pronounciation of Dutch to
>> understand this one. the Dutch {r} can be pronounced in two ways: as the
>> Klingon {r} (trilling the tounge against the top of the mouth), or very
>> similar to the Klingon {gh} (gargling the uvula against the back of the
>> toungue). any Dutchman will understand that the {r} in a {gr} or {rg}
series
>> of letters is the one prounounced in that second way. and yes, most Dutch
>> pronounce all their {r}s the "gargling way", but afaik the official way
is
>> trilling the toungue...
>
>I agree with Chakotay. The problem is (for me anyway) to tear the
>trilling "r" and the gargling "r" apart. NOT to tear the "gh" and the
>gargling "r" apart. They're two *completely* different sounds,
>whereas trilling or gargling the "r" don't sound differently to me.
>
>Unfortunately, I'm used to gargling it, and it isn't easy to change
>that. But that doesn't make the gargling "r" and the "gh" sound less
>distinct. The only point I wanted to make is, that when I pronounce
>the "gh" in Dutch, it is very smooth. When I pronounce it in Klingon,
>it isn't. It sounds more like a growl, and *only* to make the
>distinction, I wrote "ghr". It's not that it sounds like an "r"; it
>sounds like "gh" and a little bit of "r".
<snip, exactly the same story over and over again> ;-)
to us Dutchies they indeed sound the same.
but I do think you confuse the klingon {H} with the klingon {gh}...
the Klingon {gh} is a voiced Dutch {ch}, and does come quite close to the
Dutch gargled {r}. the Klingon {H} is an unvoiced (normal) Dutch {ch}, but
the Hebrew equivalent is actually a bit closer. at least, that's how I
figure it...
the thing is that people who speak a different language percieve sounds
differently. no English speaking person will be able to notice the
difference between the Dutch words {keuken} and {kuiken}, but percieve both
as {koiken} (in Dutch phonetic). another example: Thai people have three
different words that all sound as {kai} to westerners, but sound very
differently to the Thai.
we can just keep this conversation up for ever, but until there is some
universal phonetic alphabet we'll never reach a conclusion.
-Chakotay