tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Aug 26 11:02:54 1998

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Re: KLBC - mu'tlheghmey *random* vIchenmoH

---Burt Clawson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> KLBC - mu'tlheghmey *random* vIchenmoH
> 
> ghItlh Qov:
> > > maqochwI' qoS 'oHmo' DaHjaj'e' ghaHvaD <Duj HeH>
> > > pongbogh Hew 'e' vInob.
> 
> > I'm still staring blankly at  /<Duj HeH> pongbogh Hew/  "a sculpture
> > which names <Duj HeH>"?  "The <Duj HeH> which a sculpture 
> > names"?  Am
> > I missing a piece of canon that explains this usage?
>
> In the imaginings of my mind, I behold thy twisted visage whilst thy
hand
> has placed these humourless mouthings to paper.  It doth not become
thee.
> Thou well knowest mine own limitations, and thou needst not scourge
me for
> the murrain of my short-comings.  

Such an eloquent response to my laziness. I try not to play dumb as a
teaching technique, nor do I sarcastically misunderstand people who
have laid their work open to my criticism.  That kind of sarcasm is
very insulting and I don't like it when people do it to me.  If I
express uncertainty about a construction or a vocabulary word, it's
because I am uncertain and out of reach of resources that could
confirm my thoughts.  I hate to say, "no, you're wrong" because it's
usually only correct to say, "we haven't seen that done"  or "this
contradicts the rules in TKD."

When you presented the same construction again after I had explicited
criticized it, I wondered if I had missed something.  If a
construction is odd and it's awkward to explain why, I tend to point
at it, give it back and hope the person will figure out why it's odd.  

> I yet prostrate myself before thy most
> learned self, 

If and when I become most learned, you can try that.  But I'm still
working on it.  I didn't reach a point where I knew everything and
then they let me be BG.  I reached a point where I was the best
available and willing person to be BG.  It's *really* that arbitrary. 
Save this posting, and some day when you're BG and someone starts
comparing his shortcomings to intestinal diseases of cattle you'll
know what I mean.

> and shall give unto this most foul and rancid of 
> sentences,
> that sorely desired burial to which it is most certainly due.

batlh bIvang.

> > And prithee tell, tuv'el, what is the verb in the sentence which is
> > the object of that /'e'/?
> 
> I will answer, tho' thou asketh with surly countenance.  vI'nob is the
> verb to which thou hast referred.

I didn't ask that question correctly.  I didn't mean "what verb is
/'e'/ the object of?" -- which is clearly /vInob/.  I meant "what is
the verb in the sentence that /'e'/ is standing in for?"  I wanted to
know which verb you considered the main verb in /maqochwI' qoS 'oHmo'
DaHjaj'e' ghaHvaD <Duj HeH> pongbogh Hew/.  jIDoy'.

tlhIngan Hol DaSovqu'choH 'e' vISovmo', bIQaghDI' jIQIjchu'be'. 
QaghlIj DatI'meH vI'ang neH.  rut laHlIj vInoHHa'law'mo' qamISmoH 'ej
qatIch.  ghu'vam vIpayqu'.  
 
> > qalchu'chugh mu'tlhegh pIj qaq mIwvetlh.
> TRANS: If a sentence is completely corrupted this procedure is often
> preferable.

"that procedure," but the difference isn't significant here.

> 'ach mu'tlhegh toDbe'lu'chugh lo'laHbe' mIw.

A valid point.  Lets turn it into an exercise.  I am going to post
some diseased sentences that I wrote when I had been on the list about
as long as you have.  I want you to 'play BG' and tell me what is
wrong with them.
 
> > > > qatlh meqleH tujqu' DapoQ?  bIHaq'a'?
> > > TRANS: Why do you require the very hot mek'leth?  Are you > > >
going to
> > > operate?
> > >
> > > ghobe', jIHaq.  "No, I am going to intervene."
> 
> > :)  SoHvaD yapbe'law' meqleH jej.  jaghlIj DIrDaq ponglIj
DaghItlh'a'?
> TRANS: A sharp mek'leth is apparently not enough for you.  Will you
incise
> your
> name on your enemy's skin?
> 
> HIja', jaghwI' DIrDaq pongwIj vIghItlh 'ej no'wI' pongmey vIghItlh je.
> chaHDaq meqleH tuj vIlo'DI' reghbe'.  vaj jIghertaHvIS ghItlh 
> vIleghlaH.

Dajoy'chu'.  bortaS nIvqu' Dachav. 

> chu' mu'tlheghmeyvam:

> toDujna'chajmo' Sa'pu'Daj matlh van voDleH.
> "The emperor salutes his loyal generals for their obvious courage."

maj.  (I won't tell you how I mis-read "generals" at first).

> SaSqu'mo' ghItlhqoqlIj lulaDbe'lu'.
> "Your so-called engraving is too shallow to read."

I wonder if /SaS/ can mean 'shallow' in that sense.  I read it as
"horizontal."  I think I would prefer /beQ/ for this English meaning
of 'shallow.'  In TKD we are given /ghItlh/ as "manuscript."  I don't
know whether this still has connotations of a manuscript in stone or
whether you'd have to say /mu'mey DaghItlhta'bogh/ to be clear. 
Finally, the /lu-/ prefix on /laD/ says that your English translation
should be plural.

> tennIS.
> "They need to embark."

Cute.
 
> Dahjaj gheD yIQtaHvIS yIwaH!
> "Taste the catch of the day while it is still wet!"

OVS problem.  /yIQtaHvIS DaHjaj gheD/
 
> Qam'chI SepDaq 'uDwIj SuD vIje'.
> "I bought my blue laser in the region of Qam-Chee."

You're mixing Paramount Hol and Okrand transcription in putting a /'/
between /m/ and /ch/.
 
> HapQeD paQDI'norgh yInISqa'Qo'!
> "Don't interfere with the chemistry lessons again!"
maj.
 
> telDu'Daj joqtaHmo' tlhuch'egh toQ.
> "The bird exhausted himself by flapping his wings."
maj.
 
> wa'Hu' 'Iv vIghom?  yIloy!
> "Who did I meet yesterday?  Guess!"
maj.

> SajwIj tI'qa' vIghro' ghaH martaq.  pIj chopbe'.
> "Martok is my pet tika cat.  He doesn't bite often."

/SajwIj tI'qa' vIghro'/ doesn't quite work as a noun noun for me. When
you use the noun noun to qualify a specific instance of a type you put
the specific noun first.

/toqvIr lung/  a toqvIr's lizard, a lizard of the toqvIr variety
/tI'qa' vIghro'/ a tI'qa''s cat, a cat of the tI'qa' variety
/tI'qa' vIghro' Saj/ a pet of the tika cat variety.

[Voragh, could you find some canon examples of nouns qualifying other
nouns as instances of classes?  /toqvIr lung/ is the only one I can
think of, and it may be a place name, so not quite fit.]

Even on a proper name you need /-'e'/ in the pronoun as to be
construction. /... ghaH martaq'e'/. 

Is there a difference between "he often doesn't bite" and "he doesn't
bite often"?  I think so.  And I think /pIj chopbe'/ is the former. 
I'd translate "He doesn't often bite" as /motlh chopbe'/.  Something
to ponder.






==
Qov - Beginners' Grammarian
"1999 is the penultimate year of the 20th century."


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