tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Aug 20 02:16:07 1996
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RE: RE: An offer you shouldn't refuse!
- From: "Kenneth Traft" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: RE: An offer you shouldn't refuse!
- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 09:18:08 UT
----------
From: [email protected] on behalf of William H. Martin
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 1996 9:56 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: RE: An offer you shouldn't refuse!
>While I should just let this pass, there are too many blatent inaccuracies...
I thank you, Mr. Martin, for your comments. I have worked with Glen for a few
years now, but I have only his accounts of the problems he has faced from many
in the KLI. I know his views are slanted, as I believe are yours and the
others. When feelings and EGOs are bruised, reason is oftentimes lost.
>There are many abrasive, headstrong, etc. people on this list, none of whom
have >earned Glen's special status here. His intensive lack of interest in
cooperation, selling >goods on commission and then keeping the money, and his
willingness take the >language and boldly go in directions no one has chosen
to follow have earned him this >status.
Cooperation can only go so far and when "creative and intellectual"
differences cannot be resolved each must go their separate ways. As to Glen
keeping money for the work he has done, What's your point? Glen is not making
money. He isn't even covering his expenses most of the time. If it hadn't
been for the many people who have donated money to his projects and
volunteered their time and energy to those projects they wouldn't have been
realized. He had attended conventions, given classes, and made guest
appearences for very little money and in many instances these did not cover
his expenses.
>Glen simply made up new words whenever he wanted to. My favorite was his
>collection of terms for extended family members.
The made up words as you and others are so often point out are normally
constructions of words which exist in the "canon". He doesn't make a word,
but uses word consturction to create the idea. That is exactly what this list
and the many contributers tell us to do. I like his extended family member
contructions.
Aunt: SoS be'nI' (mother's sister)
vav be'nI' (father's sister)
Uncle: SoS loDnI' (mother's brother)
vav loDnI' (father's brother)
Cousin: vav loDnI' puq (uncle's child)
vav be'nI' puq (uncle's child)
SoS be'nI' puq (Aunt's child)
Sos loDnI' puq (Aunt's child)
(a couple - are there other specific one's that are offensive?)
The KLI uses the word <<pabpo'>> came about I am not familiar with the
where's or why, but it looks to me like a noun/verb construction. I would
think that <<pab po'wI'>> would be more appropiate.
That's {HoD Qanqor} or "Captain Krankor". Take your choice. You kinda mushed
the two together.
Yes I did. <<Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu'.>>
>While he was right about what had been common overuse of {-ghach}, he was far
from >alone in that insight, and when he made that pronouncement, he used it
as an >argument for using any verb as a noun whenever you wanted to. You seem
to have >conveniently forgotten that part.
You lost me here. Sorry.
You rewrite history. Glen's conclusion to that argument was that you could use
any verb as a noun. This was NOT in line with Dr. Okrand's explanation.
I don't think he was saying that! The context was that if the original way
the use of <-ghach> was argued for then it would follow. His contention was
always that <-ghach> was equatible to "-tion" or "-ness" only. This always
the way Glen explained it to me and used it when we talked about it after
Captain Krankor's article came out in HolQeD.
>He would have more resources if he chose to cooperate with others. Instead,
he >chooses to have complete control over things, and so he has complete
control over a >photocopier where a group might be able to muster the
resources to publish a real >book.
When your ideas and beliefs diverge so much from others, working together
cannot be an option. I have found him to be unreasonable at times, but he's
from the old school and his dogmatic attitude is shared by others. Some who
argue their own way even after Marc Okrand has said, "this is how it is." I
have not know Glen to argue against "canon". He has nothing but respect for
Dr. Okrand and after all, Dr. Okrand is the "father creator". It has been
argued that some in the KLI are too "rigid" in their use of the language and
make it difficult to work in cooperation. "Tit for tat -- is the pot calling
the kettle black?"
>He has taken written works and art and published them, selling them for real
money >without offering anything to those whose works he copied.
While he doesn't offer money, Glen does give them copies of his works. Maybe
it doesn't equal dollar for dollar, but as I stated earlier, Glen is not
making money. If he had the money, he'd gladly give it. He doesn't have
money so he gives in his merchandise. There are still quite a few people who
continue to give to Glen and if they feel slighted, you'd think they'd stop.
Glen has quite a few faithful followers. Many of them are KLI members, and
many of them are on this list. They continue to give support in the
background even if they don't want to openly acknowledge it openly. They must
feel they are receiving some value or one would think they'd stop. If someone
feels slighted by Glen and the ILS write me. My EMAIL address is
[email protected]. If I can make some kind of retribution I will.
>He is no demon, but I can't stand to see him so inaccurately praised. The
truth is, he >has been a positive force in the growth of the language through
his zeal, yet a lot of >people have been hurt by his reckless determination to
own the language and do with >it what he chooses. His efforts to put out his
inferior version of Hamlet just before ours >was especially insulting.
Ah, the great Hamlet uprising. I'm sorry, but I am overly impressed with the
<tlhIngan Hol> in the KLI's Hamlet. The presention is <'IH>, but I found it
very awkward to read and the representation of the English was radically
different in many of the longer passages. My opinion and definitely not
shared by everyone.
I admit that I have to use the dictionary a lot because, I just can't retain
the vocabulary for any length of time and I am not adept at consturcting
complex sentences (one of the reasons I came to this list). Very little of my
time is spent in the study of Klingon and I hoped subscribing to this list
would allow me to spend more time in this pursuit. But my time is pulled in
too many other directions. This doesn't mean I don't have a fair
understanding of Klingon, because I do. I'm just a lot s l o w e r at it!
Glen's "Hamlet" was a paraphrase and he said as much in his intro. More like
a reader's digest of Hamlet (cutting away a lot of the boring tedious dialogue
making more concise tedious and boring dialogue -- boy to I hate Shakespeare).
The title itself leads to a realize it is more humorous approach; "Homlet:
Prince of Kronos (The Hard Bones Blues)".
In all fairness to Glen, the KLI version was way way overdue in publication.
The fans were asking for Shakespeare (specifically Hamlet because of Star Trek
VI). Glen did a lot of the stuff on his own because he needed it for his
classes, convention appearences and other events. Since he had so much done
he published it. I would like to believe his intention was not an affront to
the KLI and its Hamlet. As to its being inferior, that's a matter of opinion
and it is definitely not shared by everyone.
<<reckless determination to own the language>> I've heard this said about
many of the people on this list. Glen has never claimed or desired to "own
the language". He just uses its frame work and versitility I believe was
intended in the Klingon Dictionary and bring them to the Klingon community.
Who has been hurt and in what way?
>Then, there's that little matter of his openly declaring war on KLI...
I believe that the first shots fired were by some of the KLI members. He
isn't declaring war, but responding to the many attacks, behind his back,
where he did not have the opportunity to defend himself. I am a strong
supporter of the Interstellar Language School. I am also a member of the KLI
and tell people about the things the KLI has/does whenever I can. The hard
feelings and constant attacks from both Glen and the KLI members makes me very
uncomfortable (I know this uncomfortableness is felt by others who support
both the KLI and the ILS). I would like to see a more harmonious relationship
and Glen has promised to tone criticism of the KLI down. He has been attacked
and a lot of the attacks were unwarrented. He got defensive. (I believe your
Hamlet comment was an example of how people lash out when they feel slighted.
The rancor in that message was obvious.) I will be helping him while he is in
Russia. One of the things I'd like to see is less fighting and more
constructive criticism.
Ken wrote:
>> One of my philosophy professor's favorite phase was "throwing the baby out
with the
>> bathwater". To dismiss Glen's work simply because they aren't as "pretty"
as
>> those of the KLI or because Glen is Glen, "thows the baby out with the
>> bathwater."
Mr. Martin replied:
>This is one baby many of us wouldn't miss.
Maybe you and the other's wouldn't miss, but the Klingon Community would. Not
everything that goes though the KLI or this board is perfect either. I think
that the Klingon Community should have as many examples as they can to review
and to criticize. I believe any unbiased review of Glen's work will find it
to be very good Klingon (with exceptions I admit -- I've criticized a lot of
Glen's things and he listened and made it better -- minor I'll agree, but I'm
a Data Processing Analyst who loves language, not a linguist).
Ken wrote:
>> Sorry for getting on my soap box, but I had to say it!
Mr. Martin replied:
>My feelings exactly.
So let's make this work. I'll provide protions of Glen's works and open them
for discussion. That'd work as a learning tool. And you can rip it to
shreds! We'll all be the better for it.