tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Aug 17 12:04:00 1995
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Re: }} A Q law' B Q puS
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: }} A Q law' B Q puS
- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:04:00 -0400 (EDT)
Please excuse my leaping in before an official grammarian.
There's no response to this yet and it inspires a strong urge
to respond...
I'm not a REAL grammarian. I just used to play one on TV...
According to Riku Anttila:
>
> In TKD 6.6. it says that "A and B are the two things being compared".
> What exactly qualifies as a "thing"?
>
> Until I saw ST6, I was under the impression that only nouns (or pronouns)
> could be compared, but I'm quite positive that in the scene where Azetbur's
> generals are trying to convince her that it would be better to start a war,
> brigadier Kerla, his lines being "Better to die on our feet, than living on
> our knees...!", says, although badly pronouncing, {QamvIS Hegh QaQ law'
> torvIS yIn QaQ puS}.
>
> How am I to interpret this? Is a clause allowed inside the construction
> or does -vIS without -taH work in the manner of -meH?
Well, this is just another one of those little pieces of canon
we hear, we wince and then we struggle to explain. First of
all, using {-vIS} without {taH} is, so far as we've heard from
Okrand, simply an error. He has made no pronouncements that it
is okay to do this under any circumstances, unless, of course,
you are in one of Paramount's movies or TV shows...
> (ie. {ja'chuqmeH rojHom} = A truce in order to confer =>
> {QamvIS Hegh} = Death while standing?)
Ummmm. I can see how you got the first example from TKD.
Unfortunately, I really don't like Okrand's explanation of that
particular point. Seeing the sentence as a whole in the
example, I would not have associated {ja'chuqmeH} with the noun
{rojHom} so much as with the verb {neH}.
The whole sentence is {ja'chuqmeH rojHom neH jaghla'.} If you
analyze that the same way Okrand analyzes the next example
{jagh luHoHmeH jagh lunejtaH,} you would say that the purpose
of the action of the main verb is described in the clause
involved with the verb with {-meH}. The enemy commander WANTS a
peace in order to conver. Why does he want peace? In order to
conver. What is the purpose of his desire? In order to conver.
Interpreting it this way -- In order to confer, the officer
wants a truce -- is consistent with the rest of the grammar.
Interpreting it as Okrand unfortunately explains it -- The
enemy officer wants: a truce in order to confer -- is not
consistent at all with anything else in the grammar. I think
that if Okrand looked at this today and thought about it, he
might reconsider his explanation.
{rojHom} is not part of the clause, since it is neither the
subject nor object of {ja'chuq}, and nowhere else does Okrand
suggest that a purpose clause can be a descriptor of a noun. I
really think that to do so is a REALLY bad idea. A purpose
clause is a subordinate clause relating to the main verb, like
any other subordinate clause.
> I would assume that the -meH thing would fit fine inside law'/puS.
It would, but for different reasons. Again, it relates to the
verb, not the noun, in my opinion.
> What else is allowed? Adverbials? Verbs? (Are Hegh & yIn verbs or
> nouns in Kerla's sentence?) Whole sentences, perhaps?
Definitely nouns. Death while standing is better than life
while kneeling. More litterally, connecting the grammar, "Death
- is good while standing - more; life - is good while kneeling
- less." A subordinate clause, like {-taHvIS} relates to the
main verb, not the subject or object. In a law'/puS
construction, this becomes very strange, but useful.
> Summaring everything in a single sentence, is it legal to say
>
> {batlh Hegh QaQ law' QIt ramchoH QaQ puS} for
> "It's better to die with honor than slowly become irrelevant"
NO.
You were right the first time when you figured that law'/puS
only works with nouns. Okrand has been quite clear about this.
You can have subordinate clauses relating to the verbs of
quality, but the don't really relate to the nouns being
compared except through those verbs of quality.
charghwI'
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