tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jan 20 12:15:27 2015
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] tagha' MARSDaq BEAGLE2 nejwI’’e’ chillu’bogh lutulu’
Brent Kesler (brent.of.all.people@gmail.com) ![[KLI Member]](/pics/KLImemberbutton.gif "[KLI Member]")
<div dir="ltr">I was pondering something similar a few months back. I wanted to translate, "These words are difficult to translate." I tried:<div><br></div><div>1. ?mughlu'meH Qatlh mu'meyvam.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But I thought that might mean something like "These words are being difficult <i>so that </i>someone translates them", or "These words are being difficult in order to be translated", which is obviously not what I was going for. </div><div><br></div><div>I think part of the problem is that in English, a sentence like "It is difficult to run." has the same superficial structure as "He is running to raise money". My intuitions get cross-wired whenever I want to translate a sentence that starts "It is difficult to __". In the first sentence, "it" refers to the verb phrase "to run", but in the second sentence, "he" does NOT refer to the verb phrase "to raise money". </div><div><br></div><div>{-meH} is an obvious choice for the second sentence:</div><div><br></div><div>2. Huch bajmeH qetlI' ghaH.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>However, while looking through some canon examples, I decided that I might be overthinking it. I might be getting so caught up on defining {-meH} as a purpose marker, that I'm ignoring its actual use. I found some examples that suggest my original translation, {?mughlu'meH Qalth mu'meyvam} would be acceptable.</div><div><br></div><div>3. Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not saying anything like "The day is being good <i>so that</i> someone will die." Another English translation would be "It is good to die today". We could easily replace {QaQ} with {Qatlh} to say "It if difficult to die today ".</div><div><br></div><div>4. Heghlu'meH Qatlh jajvam.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Another canon example:</div><div><br></div><div>5. tlhutlhmeH HIq ngeb qaq law', bIQ qaq puS.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This doesn't mean that fake ale is being preferable <i>in order to</i> drink.</div><div><br></div><div>These example sentences make me think that a {-meH} clause is almost a commentary on whatever follows it. You can say "For the purpose of X" and the Klingon sentences make sense.</div><div><br></div><div>2a. For the purpose of earning money, he is running.</div><div>3a. For the purpose of dying, this day is good.</div><div>4a. For the purpose of dying, this day is difficult.</div><div>5a. For the purpose of drinking, fake ale is preferable to water.</div><div><br></div><div>It's almost as if Okrand says "For the purpose of ..." whenever he translates something using {-meH}.</div><div><br></div><div>This makes me think that, regarding Beagle 2, we could say:</div><div><br></div><div>6. <span style="font-size:13px">tera' Hovtay' yuQ loSDIchDaq lengmeH, Qatlh.</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I remember finding a perfect example to support my argument a while back, but I can't find it now, and I'm at work. Maybe someone who know canon better than I do can find some examples (or counterexamples).</div><div><br></div><div>bI'reng</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 1:44 PM, SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"; target="_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On 1/20/2015 1:27 PM, SuStel wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 1/20/2015 1:17 PM, <a href="mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com"; target="_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Jan 20, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Gaerfindel <<a href="mailto:gaerfindel@hotmail.com"; target="_blank">gaerfindel@hotmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Qatlh tera' Hovtay' yuQ loSDIchDaq lengmeH vay'<br>
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
</span><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think he wants to say "traveling on Mars is difficult" (or<br>
complicated). This is why he asked for a sentence as subject.<br>
<br>
quljIb, you can't make a sentence the subject of another sentence. Only<br>
a noun or noun phrase can be the subject of {Qatlh}.<br>
<br>
Qatlh Mars ghorDaq lengmeH Qu'<br>
a task for the purpose of traveling on the surface of Mars is<br>
difficult/complex<br>
<br>
It's clumsy in English, but not so much in Klingon.<br>
<br>
Qatlh Mars ghorDaq leng<br>
a journey on the surface of Mars is difficult/complex<br>
<br>
{leng} is also a noun! :)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
toH! "Traveling *TO* Mars is difficult" Hechlu'pu'.<br>
<br>
ghuy'cha'! You can't say {Mars ghorDaq leng} as a noun phrase, and shame on me for saying it! (There's another English-ism that's crept into Klingon.)<br>
<br>
Qatlh Mars leng<br>
a Mars-journey is difficult/complex<br>
<br>
Presumably, in context, one knows that you're talking about traveling TO Mars, not on it.<br>
<br>
Otherwise,<br>
<br>
Qatlh MarsDaq lengmeH Qu'<br>
a task for the purpose of traveling to Mars is difficult/complex<br>
<br>
or even<br>
<br>
Qatlh MarsDaq lengmeH mIw<br>
procedure(s) for traveling to Mars is(are) difficult/complex<br>
<br>
If you're talking about the complexity of the apparatus, try<br>
<br>
Qatlh Mars Duj<br>
Qatlh Mars nejwI'<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href="http://www.trimboli.name/"; target="_blank">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><br>
<br>
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