tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Feb 25 10:12:45 2015
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Nonsense words
Robyn Stewart (robyn@flyingstart.ca) ![[KLI Member]](/pics/KLImemberbutton.gif "[KLI Member]")
![[Hol po'wI']](/pics/level3_big.png "[Hol po'wI']")
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>QaQ qechlIj, voragh.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Steven Boozer [mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> February 25, 2015 8:33<br><b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Nonsense words<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I quite agree. I was suggesting Qov verify that these didn’t make it into the Bing database by mistake – like *<b>Maktag</b>* did.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com";>lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a> [<a href="mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com";>mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 25, 2015 10:28 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I seriously doubt that Okrand vetted ANY of these “month” names, and I don’t feel responsible for memorizing every impossible-to-pronounce junk word that any fiction writer comes up with for a character pretending to speak Klingon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>If the author doesn’t respect the language enough to work something out with Marc Okrand, I don’t respect the author enough to learn the words or add them to any lexicon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Retired Door Repair Guy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Steven Boozer <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu";>sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Qov, another Klingon month name from the episodes you might want to check is *<b>Nay’Poq</b>*:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:Courier'>Kohlar asked the pregnant B'Elanna, "Did you conceive d</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'>uring</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'> the holy month of *<b><i>Nay'Poq</i></b><i>*</i>?" (VOY "Prophecy"; why this month</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'> is holy was not explained)<br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'>Also *<b><i>Lo'Bral</i></b><i>*, *<b>Soo'jen</b>*, *<b>Merruthj</b>*<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></i>and *<b><i>Xan'lahr</i></b><i>*</i><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>are other months "in the Year of Kahless" sequence from Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels'<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><i>Excelsior: Forged in Fire<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></i>[2007].<br><br></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>--</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Voragh</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Feb 24, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca";><span style='color:purple'>robyn@flyingstart.ca</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Perfect. That’s just what I was hoping: it’s the name of a *<b>particular</b>* month—in a particular culture on a particular planet. So I don’t have to disprove it.<br><br>Now if everyone, of any ability, would write me a few Klingon sentences whose English translation contains the word “month” or “season” we can retrain it. Don’t stretch yourself. Write within your ability. E-mail to me, include the English translation and then I will post the list for us to typo check.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>- Qov</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Felix Malmenbeck [<a href="mailto:felixm@kth.se";><span style='color:purple'>mailto:felixm@kth.se</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>February 24, 2015 15:19</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> Maktag<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>maqtagh: a klingon month or season (n) [From "New Ground" (TNG). At least 43 days long.]</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>Is anyone familiar enough with this TNG novel to know whether</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> maqtagh was supposed to be a particular season, analogous</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> perhaps to “monsoon” or “spring” or a generic word for a</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> seasonal time period?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not a novel, actually, but an episode.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Alexander Rozhenko, son of Worf, was born on the 43rd day of Maktag. It's not specified if it's a month or a season.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The book Excelsior: Forged in Fire treats it as a month.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>(It also treats Klingon years as being precisely the same length as Earth years, which flies in the face of Star Trek canon.)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#212121'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></span></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca";><span style='color:#954F72'>robyn@flyingstart.ca</span></a>><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, February 25, 2015 00:07<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[Tlhingan-hol] FW: Nonsense words</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#212121'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>From a conversation with my primary contact on the Microsoft Bing team.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>---</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I found this online (<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/md/startrekkie1701/klindic.html";><span style='color:#954F72'>http://www.angelfire.com/md/startrekkie1701/klindic.html</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>-- careful, this site seems weird and may contain malware)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maktag<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>maqtagh: a klingon month or season (n) [From "New Ground" (TNG). At least 43 days long.]</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Somehow the wrong spelling of Maktag made it into a training text file, where I can see</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>maqtagh <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> month</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>maqtagh <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> season</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>i.e. possibly someone originally found the site above and added words / sentences to one of the training files.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And so the engine learned that.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We have to remove and retrain.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We have an efficient way to change bad translation, but not a good way to ‘remove’ words or phrases altogether..<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>..what I can do easily (we do these once a week) is to replace the wrong translation from English to Klingon.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>i.e. “month” and “season” right now translate to “maqtagh”.. what would be a better translation for “season”?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>---<br></span><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Some well-meaning individual has managed to add Angelfire to our learning files, and like glitter in the carpet, it will be everywhere unless we can pick it out grain by grain. Is anyone familiar enough with this TNG novel to know whether maqtagh was supposed to be a particular season, analogous perhaps to “monsoon” or “spring” or a generic word for a seasonal time period? </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>- Qov</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";background:white'>_______________________________________________</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br><span style='background:white'>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><span style='background:white'><a href="mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org";><span style='color:purple'>Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</span></a></span><br><span style='background:white'><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol";><span style='color:purple'>http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</span></a></span></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br></span><span lang=EN-US><a href="mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org";><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purple'>Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br></span><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol";><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purple'>http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>_______________________________________________
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