tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jan 07 21:24:18 2013
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] mIl'oD veDDIr SuvwI': 'ay' 15 - pop 'oH ghob'e'
At 19:31 '?????' 1/7/2013, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:
> I also
> couldn't find a way to cram an second instance of
> bel into the English translation in a way that
> added anything to the sentence. Does it have a
> purpose that eludes me in the Klingon?]
Not really. The English rendition I have is "let
me see again in joy your joyful face", and I
realise now that he doesn't mean "let me see
your joyful face in joy again". vIchoH:
belbogh qablIj vIlegh jIbeltaHvIS je jIH 'e' chaw'jaj.
Qap. 'IqtaH bel 'ach pIch Daghajbe' SoH.
> >DeSDajDaq ghaH tlhap roStevan 'ej paw'chu';
>
> Rostevan took him in his arms and they
> [demonstrated affection in a culturally appropriate manner].
Well put. :)
I found myself unable to guess what that was
going to be for Georgians, and the Klingon form sounds silly in English.
> >chaH rurbogh chang'eng'e' not tu'lu'pu' ?
> >Qorghbogh vay', vay' Qorghlu'pu'bogh joq.
>
> A twin like him had never been found--neither
> someone who took care of him nor who had been cared for.
> [I wonder if SaH is preferable to Qorgh here. I'm
> not really getting the point of Qorghlu'pu'bogh as an asset.]
The pronoun is {chaH}: "A pair like THEM had
never been found, neither carer nor cared-for".
vIlaDHa'ba'pu'.
The English is "like unto them have none been,
neither upbringer nor upbrought".
And it makes no more sense to me in English, but
whatever it means I think you've translated it well. Carry on.
taH:
> qo' bel ghaH tIna'tIn'e', mIp'a' wellu'bogh ghaH.
>
> Tinatin was a pleasant world,. She was a fortune owed.
Hrm. I see how you got "a pleasant world". I'll
change it to {qo'vaD bel} or {qo' bel'a'} (the
English is "She is the joy of the world, she is treasure and due").
qo' bel'a' brings the meaning to me more
directly. I don't understand the point of the
'due' or 'owed' aspect. Are you sure the word
due in the original has the meaning of something that must be paid?
> >QIt lengbe'bej loD Qup'e', Dat paSbe'qu' jul
rurbogh loD'e', nom lengtaHvIS.
>
> The young man by no means travelled slowly. The
> man who was like the sun was everywhere, not
at all late, travelling quickly.
>
> [Late for what? I know you're working with an overwrought original.]
Yeah, pretty much. "The sun-faced had not wasted
time in his rapid journey". ...Wasted time for
what? I'm not sure. I may change this to something using moD.
It's confusing having it be paS when there is no
event to be late for. moD would help. Consider mImbe' or yevbe', too.
> >veng loHmeH, qaStaHvIS wej jaj vengDaq ratlhtaH
> >ghaH chon taghpa', 'ej ghojwI'Daj SermaDInvaD ngupDaj nob 'avtanDIl.
>
> He stayed three days to administrate the city
> before the hunt, and Avtandil gave his cloak to his student Sermadin.
I rely a lot on {ngup} in its metaphorical sense
of "authority, power" (or "mantle", if you like).
Not a problem. Whether literal or figurative it's
clear that he put him in charge.
> [Okay, now I'm confused. Is this a flashback to
> Avtandil's role in administration of the royal
> city before he left, or by virtue of his great
> beauty and conversational skills he suddenly is
> put in charge of a border city. Did you mean cho'
> and not che' earlier? Did I miss something? Or
> am I just failing to grasp the cultural context
> that Avtandil simply possesses everything he passes through?]
No, as you worked out in the next paragraph,
'avtanDIl already had the role of administering
this city. I'm a little loath to change the
order of presentation of facts in the story, but
from what you say, this might be one that needs
cutting out from here and putting earlier in the narrative.
There may be clues in the verb forms that make it
clearer in English/Georgian and require some more
explanation in Klingon. I know from my novel
that one needs more specific scene setting for
flashbacks or recollections in Klingon. I
frequently had to make things more linear than I would have in English.
> >nItebHa' toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je luQorghlu'pu';
>
> Acting together the servant and Avtandil were cared for.
*Had been* (-pu') cared for - that is, they were
brought up together by roStevan. I'll change this, though:
puqpu' chaHtaHvIS toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je nItebHa' luQorghlu'pu'.
maj. I didn't remember/realize that roStevan
raised Avtandil. I though they only came to know
one another after Avtandil attended the
coronation. I'll have to go back and re-read.
(naDev poD mu'tlhegh law')
> >mubechqu'moHpu'bogh be'vo' DaH tIqwIj DuQtaH
> >bel'a'. tIna'tInvaD muDuQtaH parmaqna';
>
> Ecstasy from the woman who has made me suffer so
> now pierces my heart. True love for Tinatin infuses my soul.
>
> >SeparDu'wIj bIrDaq pubchoH tIqwIj 'Iw tuj; wej
> >bepwIj vISo'pu'bogh vI'anglaHbe'pu'.
>
> In my cold [body parts metaphorized as gemstones]
> the warm blood of my heart comes to a boil. I
> could not yet reveal the agony I had hidden.]
Um. Which body parts specifically does the
metaphor of {SeparDu'} make you think of? I was
hoping that the simile of "eyes as hard as
Separ" from KGT would make people think of the
eyes (Separ is the standard metaphor I'm using
throughout for the eyes), but you've just made
me realise that there's another entirely
different reading possible in this instance,
involving the qIvonDu'. You and your dirty mind.
:P Is it the qIvonDu' you were thinking of?
I honestly had nothing in mind. I don't think of
blood boiling in the eyes. I was convinced I was
missing something, or had perhaps misremembered
an additional meaning of Separ. I think it's a
perfectly fair (fair as in may, not as in tIn)
metaphorical stretch and it's okay for a first
time reader to have to stretch to look for it.
> >'ach DaH jItulchoHta' 'e' mura' be'vetlh, vaj jIbelchoH 'e' Dalegh.
>
> But now I have taken hope again and that woman
> commanded me, thus you see me become pleased.
'e', not 'ej: "But now that woman has commanded
that I take hope [again]". I cheated a bit with
the prefix trick on a verb that governs 'e',
which I don't know whether it's possible.
Ah, that would be why I read it as 'ej. I don't
know why I like that much less than other prefix
tricks, but I guess I can't say it's wrong. It's
easily written as mura'mo' be'vetlh ... or
mura'meH be'vetlh, jatlhpu' <yItulchoH>.
> > loDnalwI' Damoj SoH neH vIneH, latlh
> > vIneHbe'qu'; tIqwIjDaq lav pochbogh Sor'a' 'oH SanwIj'e'.?
>
> I want only you to become my husband. I want no
> other. My fate is a bush a great tree plants in
> my heart. [Or possibly a great tree that planted
> a bush in my heart. Trees planting bushes confuse me]>
It's another one of the metaphors that runs
throughout the whole bom. You might remember
that early on, 'avtanDIl is compared to a tree
(«woch; Sor rur»), and in many places through
the original poem he is simply referred to as
"the tree", "the cypress-formed", and such. The
shrub is similarly a metaphor for love here
("plant the violet of hope in my heart, strew
roses", etc.) (though I've only just realised
the coincidence that {lav} "shrub" and English
"love" are homophones - that wasn't
intentional). The English version of this line
is literally "a planted tree [i.e. Avtandil]
falls to my lot", but I deliberately didn't
resolve the {-bogh} clause in the Klingon so
that either reading (or both) is possible: her
fate could be either the love that the man
plants, or alternately, the man who plants the
love. (But I'm not deliberately trying to
confuse, I swear! The metaphor in this poem is just really, really dense.)
It's fine. I don't think it's the Klingon here
that confuses me. I hope there will be lots of
footnotes saying things like, "i.e. Avtandil". I
might have followed it better without the six month gap in reading, too.
-Qov
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