tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 04 20:06:33 2009

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Re: Sentences as objects

Tracy Canfield (toastrix@gmail.com)



I am still sorting through these to see what patterns they suggest, but
here's something that jumped out:
yIntaH qIrq 'e' vIneH.
Kirk I want alive.
"I want that Kirk keeps living." (STConst)

 'e' neHbe' vavwI'
That wasn't what my father wanted. ST6


TKD 6.2.5 says "When the verb of the second sentence is neH 'want', neither
'e' nor net is used."  With two occurrences of neH with 'e' in the corpus,
can we safely say that 'e' is optional with neH?

2009/11/3 Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>

> Tracy Canfield:
> >I have some questions about verbs in the TKD glossary that could
> potentially
> >take sentences as objects.  TKD only gives a few examples of these
> >constructions, mostly in section 6.2.5.  ter'eS has additional information
> >at http://teresh.tdonnelly.org/kliadd6.html .  I'm finding that I have
> >some questions that go beyond both sources.
> >   [....]
> >1.  Verbs of speech
> >2.  Verbs of observation
> >3.  Verbs of mental processes
> >4.  Verbs of wanting
> >5.  Other verbs which take sentence objects in human languages
>
>
> Before we start this thread, I thought I'd share everything I have in my
> notes on {'e'} and {net} "that (previous topic)":
>
> "Klingon has two special pronouns, {'e'} and {net}, which refer to the
> previous sentence as a whole. They are used primarily, though not
> exclusively, with verbs of thinking or observation (such as know, see). They
> are always treated as the object of the verb, and the verb always takes a
> prefix indicating a third-person singular object. What is a single sentence
> in English is often two sentences in Klingon. net is used only under special
> circumstances, but {'e'} is common. Several examples should make the use of
> {'e'} clear.
>  qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' luSov
>  They know we kill prisoners.
> This sentence is actually two: (1) {qama'pu' DIHoH} "We kill prisoners";
> (2) {'e' luSov} "They know that." The pronoun {'e'} refers to the previous
> sentence, "We kill prisoners."
>  yaS qIppu' 'e' vIlegh
>  I saw him hit the officers.
> The two sentences here are: (1) {yaS qIppu'} "He/she hit the officer"; (2)
> {'e' vIlegh" "I see that." The construction might equally well be translated
> as "I saw that he/she hit the officer". ...
>  In complex sentences of this type, the second verb never takes an aspect
> suffix. (section 4.2.7) When the verb of the second sentence has a
> third-person subject (that is, the pronominal prefix is 0) but the intended
> meaning is one or someone, rather than he, she, it, or they, {net} is used
> instead of {'e'}.  [TKD p. 65f]
>
>
> "When the verb of the second sentence is {neH} "want", neither {'e'} nor
> {net} is used, but the construction is otherwise identical to that just
> described.
>  jIQong vIneH  I want to sleep.
>  qalegh vIneH  I want to see you.
>  Dalegh vIneH  I want you to see him."   [TKD p. 66f]
>
>
> "Similarly, with verbs of saying (say, tell, ask, etc.), {'e'} and {net}
> are not used. The two phrases simply follow one another, in either order:
>  qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'
> or
>  HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'
>  I told you not to interrupt me.
> This is literally, "I told you, 'Don't interrupt me!' or 'Don't interrupt
> me!' I told you.' ... An aspect marker (here, {-pu'} perfective) may always
> be attached to the verb of saying, regardless of whether it is the first or
> second verb." (TKD 67)
>
>
> "The correct way to say "Do you think that...?" is {... 'e' DaQub'a'?}
> ({'e'} is "that", referring to something that precedes it in the sentence or
> in the discussion; {DaQub'a'} is "do you think it?").
>  [msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand 12/96]
>
>
> "All four words asked about (tul} "hope", {Qub} "think", {Sov} "know", and
> {SIv} "wonder") can be used in the construction {S 'e' V}, where S is a
> sentence, {'e'} is the pronoun (that) which refers to a previous topic (in
> this case S), and V is one of the verbs listed above (as well as some
> others). If the sentence (S) is {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} "you speak Klingon",
> it's OK to say:
>  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vItul  "I hope that you speak Klingon"
>  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vIQub  "I think that you speak Klingon"
>  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISov  "I know that you speak Klingon"
>  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv  "I wonder if you speak Klingon".
> (The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view, but
> it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched the
> pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak
> Klingon". In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you
> speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak Klingon",
> but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon sentence means
> something more like "I am curious about whether you speak Klingon". The
> clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.)
>  One other verb that can be used in the V slot in such sentences is {Hon}
> "doubt":
>  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vIHon  "I doubt that you speak Klingon".
> I'll return on another occasion to the question of whether the sentence
> preceding the {'e'} in such sentences can be a question. This is a more
> general issue than whether you can do it with {SIv} "wonder" and I need some
> clear guidance from Maltz."  [msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand 7/01/97)
>
>
> "Well, I just spent last weekend hang'n with Marc Okrand. I got answers for
> some of our questions... The first one I nailed him with was our lovely QAO.
> Uh-oh. You cannot use a 'question' as an object; but... it is not known yet
> if Klingon question words can act as one of those relative ... pronoun[s]
> ...  The safest thing for now would be to recast if possible." [DloraH,
> personal conversation with MO [May 1998])
>
>
> EXAMPLE SENTENCES WITH {'e'}:
>
> bIjatlh 'e' yImev
> Shut up! (Stop speaking!) TKD
>
> Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu'
> Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals.  CK
> [sic! for 'e' lutIv tera'nganpu']
>
> bIyIntaH 'e' Daqotlhbe'
> [You don't deserve to live. (untranslated)] PK
>
> bIjatlh 'e' yImev
> Shut up! PK
>
> bIleS 'e' yImev
> Stop relaxing! PK
>
> Sop 'e' mev
> Stop eating! PK
>
> lI' 'e' Datu'
> You will find it useful. PK
>
> logh veQDaq bachchugh, yoH 'e' toblaHbe' SuvwI'
> Shooting space garbage is no test of a warrior's mettle. (ST5 notes)
>
> HoD, naDev maH 'e' luSovbe'
> Captain, they don't know we're here. (ST5 notes)
>
> 'e' neHbe' vavwI'
> That wasn't what my father wanted. ST6
>
> bIH lo' SkyBox International, Inc. 'e' chaw'
> SkyBox International, Inc. authorized user. (Skybox Copyright)
>
> Hem tlhIngan Segh 'ej maHemtaH 'e' wIHech
> Klingons are a proud race, and we intend to go on being proud. TKW
>
> bISuv 'e' yIwIv; bISutlh 'e' yIwIvQo'
> Choose to fight, not negotiate. TKW
>
> nIteb Qob qaD jup 'e' chaw'be' SuvwI'
> A warrior does not let a friend face danger alone. TKW
>
> bIQapqu'meH tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS
> To really succeed, you must enjoy eating poison. TKW
>
> DujDaj HubtaHvIS Hegh 'e' tul Hoch tlhIngan
> To die defending his ship is the hope of every Klingon. TKW
>
> Qu'Daj ta'taHvIS Hegh 'e' tul Hoch tlhIngan
> To die in the line of duty is the hope of every Klingon. TKW
>
> wo' toy'taHvIS Hegh 'e' tul Hoch tlhIngan
> To die while serving the Empire is the hope of every Klingon. TKW
>
> bIjatlh 'e' yImev. yItlhutlh
> Stop talking! Drink!
>
> yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'
> Survival must be earned.
>
> yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'
> Victory must be earned.
>
> Ha'DIbaH DaSop 'e' DaHechbe'chugh yIHoHQo'
> Do not kill an animal unless you intend to eat it.
>
> jach SuvwI' 'e' yIQoy!
> Hear the warrior cry out! TKW
>
> qab legh 'e' poQ
> He/she demands to see a face. [i.e. challenge to a duel] TKW
>
> vuv be' 'e' baj
> win the favor of a women (lit. "earn that a woman respect him") TKW
>
> juDev 'ej Dujvam ra'wI' DagheS 'e' vItlhob
> I ask you to lead us as commander of this ship. KGT
> ("I request that you lead us and that you assume the duties of commander of
> this ship.")
>
> qagh, ro'qegh'Iwchab, targh tIq Sop 'e' lungIl Humanpu' puS
> Few humans dare to eat gagh, rokeg blood pie, or heart of targ. S21
>
> DaH che' ghawran. yejquv DevwI' moj ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI'
> Dapu'bogh janluq pIqarD HoD.
> Gowron currently presides, named leader of the High Council by Captain
> Jean-Luc Picard, who was acting as Arbiter of Succession. S25
>
> DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS be'nI'pu'
> lurSa' be'etor je.
> The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are constantly seeking
> a higher standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon High Council.
> S26
>
> naDev bIQumqa' 'e' vItul.
> (untranslated) [msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand 11/96]
>
> qagh largh SuvwI' ghung. Sum qagh 'e' Sov
> The hungry warrior smells the gagh. He/she knows the gagh is nearby. (HQ 12
> [1998])
>
> lengtaH 'e' yIchaw'
> Let them continue on their way." (ENT "The Augments")
>
> loHwI' vISuch 'e' vIpoQ
> I demand to see the magistrate! (ENT "Affliction")
>
> 'e' bop
> That's what it's all about. (Qanqor at qep'a' 2005, approved by Okrand)
>
> yIntaH qIrq 'e' vIneH. DaSwIj bIngDaq latlhpu' vItap.
> Kirk I want alive. The rest I will grind beneath my boot.
> ("I want that Kirk keeps living. I will mash the others under my boot.")
> (STConst)
>
>
> EXAMPLES SENTENCES WITH {net}:
>
> qama'pu' DIHoH net Sov
> One knows we kill prisoners. TKD
>
> Qu'vaD lI' net tu'bej
> One certainly finds it useful for the mission. TKD
> You will find it useful. ST3
>
> vImuHlu' net wuqHa'
> My death sentence was commuted! (ENT "Affliction")
>
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> Canon Master of the Klingons
>
>
>
>






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