tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 28 14:36:48 2007

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Re: Now and then?

Steven Boozer ([email protected])



Voragh:
> >> "Voyages: now and then".
> >   [...]
> >> What conjugation, if any, can I use here?

David Trimboli:
> > Given that it's not a full sentence in English, I wouldn't hold you to
> > correct grammar in a translation. Since we don't know what Klingons find
> > pithy or what kind of rules-breaking they'd allow for something pithy,
> > you can simply go on your human instinct.
> >
> > Changing {DaH} and {ngugh} to {DaHjaj} and {ret} might solve your problem:
> >     lengmey: DaHjaj ret je

mI'qey:
>I was going to suggest {DaHjaj} and - because I had
>forgotten about {ret} - either {wa'Hu'} or {ben}.  The
>former if we think Klingon allows a figurative use of
>{wa'Hu'} to mean "some time in the past", like the
>"yesterday" in "yesterday when I was young"; the
>latter otherwise.

Unfortunately we only have one example of {wa'Hu'}:

   wa'Hu' jIghung
   Yesterday I was hungry. CK

FYI for figurative references to the past:

KGT 110:  The phrase "vegetable days" ... refers to one's youth, a time 
before reaching an age considered appropriate for marriage. The imagery is 
of a plant, rooted but growing, just as a Klingon youth still needs 
grounding (the home) for nourishment (teaching) in order to grow 
spiritually. The phrase is used in sentences such as {naH jajmeywIj betleH 
vIyanbe'} ("In my vegetable days, I did not wield a bat'leth)".

This suggests {DaHjajmey, naH jajmey je} "todays and vegetable days".  And 
it even rhymes, which is nice in a title!

>But IMHO {ret} is better.

I agree.  I wish I had thought of it.  Don't know if {ret} "period of time 
ago" and {pIq} "period of time from now" can be used by themselves without 
a time unit though:

HQ 8.3:  It follows the noun specifying the length of time involved, as in 
{cha' tup pIq} "two minutes from now}... These words follow the more 
specific time units. For example, "two minutes ago" is "cha' tup ret", 
literally "two minute time-period-ago." "Two minutes from now" is {cha' tup 
pIq}. (It is also possible, though not necessary, to use the plural 
suffixes with the time units if there is more than one of them: {cha' 
tupmey ret}, {cha' tupmey pIq}.) The words {ret} and pIq could also be used 
with days, months, and years (e.g., {wej jaj ret} "three days ago", rather 
than {wejHu'}, but utterances of these are not particularly common, sound a 
bit archaic, and are usually restricted to rather formal settings.

I do like that "usually restricted to rather formal settings" however.

>A direct substitution of words in the English template
>doesn't seem quite right to me, I think because I read
>{DaHjaj} and {ret} as nouns unless they're occupying
>an adverbial position in a sentence.  If they are to
>be construed this way, the tiny (and perhaps deluded)
>Klingon part of my brain wants their connection with
>{lengmey} to be better specified:  these are voyages
>*of* yesterday and today.  Hence I'd expect the
>Klingon equivalent of a genitive:  the noun-noun
>construction.
>
>     DaHjaj ret je lengmey
>
>Does this make any sense?

It does.  Since we have the luxury of not knowing what the title actually 
refers to, perhaps a Klingon might have just have entitled his/her {SoQ}:

   lengmey: ret pIq je

   ret pIq je lengmey

   ret leng(mey), pIq leng(mey) [je]

I was really asking two questions here:  1) How to translate this 
particular title?; 2) Can you use {je} to connect two adverbials - or even 
one noun and one adverbial - in a non-sentence context (e.g. lists, 
headings, titles)?

We've pretty much covered the first question, but the second is still 
open.  My suspicion is that a Klingon would see these as "(the word) {DaH}, 
(the noun) {ret}, and (the suffix) {-mey}" and just say {DaH (mu'), ret 
(DIp), -mey (mojaq) je}.

Okrand once referred to "saying (the word/phrase) X" in a post to 
msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand (29 Jun 1997):

   There are instances where the pronominal prefix marks a big
   distinction in meaning:

     {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh}  "you speak Klingon"

     {tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh}  "you say, 'Klingon language'"
     [that is "you say the phrase 'Klingon language'"]



--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons






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