tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 28 14:36:48 2007
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Re: Now and then?
Voragh:
> >> "Voyages: now and then".
> > [...]
> >> What conjugation, if any, can I use here?
David Trimboli:
> > Given that it's not a full sentence in English, I wouldn't hold you to
> > correct grammar in a translation. Since we don't know what Klingons find
> > pithy or what kind of rules-breaking they'd allow for something pithy,
> > you can simply go on your human instinct.
> >
> > Changing {DaH} and {ngugh} to {DaHjaj} and {ret} might solve your problem:
> > lengmey: DaHjaj ret je
mI'qey:
>I was going to suggest {DaHjaj} and - because I had
>forgotten about {ret} - either {wa'Hu'} or {ben}. The
>former if we think Klingon allows a figurative use of
>{wa'Hu'} to mean "some time in the past", like the
>"yesterday" in "yesterday when I was young"; the
>latter otherwise.
Unfortunately we only have one example of {wa'Hu'}:
wa'Hu' jIghung
Yesterday I was hungry. CK
FYI for figurative references to the past:
KGT 110: The phrase "vegetable days" ... refers to one's youth, a time
before reaching an age considered appropriate for marriage. The imagery is
of a plant, rooted but growing, just as a Klingon youth still needs
grounding (the home) for nourishment (teaching) in order to grow
spiritually. The phrase is used in sentences such as {naH jajmeywIj betleH
vIyanbe'} ("In my vegetable days, I did not wield a bat'leth)".
This suggests {DaHjajmey, naH jajmey je} "todays and vegetable days". And
it even rhymes, which is nice in a title!
>But IMHO {ret} is better.
I agree. I wish I had thought of it. Don't know if {ret} "period of time
ago" and {pIq} "period of time from now" can be used by themselves without
a time unit though:
HQ 8.3: It follows the noun specifying the length of time involved, as in
{cha' tup pIq} "two minutes from now}... These words follow the more
specific time units. For example, "two minutes ago" is "cha' tup ret",
literally "two minute time-period-ago." "Two minutes from now" is {cha' tup
pIq}. (It is also possible, though not necessary, to use the plural
suffixes with the time units if there is more than one of them: {cha'
tupmey ret}, {cha' tupmey pIq}.) The words {ret} and pIq could also be used
with days, months, and years (e.g., {wej jaj ret} "three days ago", rather
than {wejHu'}, but utterances of these are not particularly common, sound a
bit archaic, and are usually restricted to rather formal settings.
I do like that "usually restricted to rather formal settings" however.
>A direct substitution of words in the English template
>doesn't seem quite right to me, I think because I read
>{DaHjaj} and {ret} as nouns unless they're occupying
>an adverbial position in a sentence. If they are to
>be construed this way, the tiny (and perhaps deluded)
>Klingon part of my brain wants their connection with
>{lengmey} to be better specified: these are voyages
>*of* yesterday and today. Hence I'd expect the
>Klingon equivalent of a genitive: the noun-noun
>construction.
>
> DaHjaj ret je lengmey
>
>Does this make any sense?
It does. Since we have the luxury of not knowing what the title actually
refers to, perhaps a Klingon might have just have entitled his/her {SoQ}:
lengmey: ret pIq je
ret pIq je lengmey
ret leng(mey), pIq leng(mey) [je]
I was really asking two questions here: 1) How to translate this
particular title?; 2) Can you use {je} to connect two adverbials - or even
one noun and one adverbial - in a non-sentence context (e.g. lists,
headings, titles)?
We've pretty much covered the first question, but the second is still
open. My suspicion is that a Klingon would see these as "(the word) {DaH},
(the noun) {ret}, and (the suffix) {-mey}" and just say {DaH (mu'), ret
(DIp), -mey (mojaq) je}.
Okrand once referred to "saying (the word/phrase) X" in a post to
msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand (29 Jun 1997):
There are instances where the pronominal prefix marks a big
distinction in meaning:
{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} "you speak Klingon"
{tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh} "you say, 'Klingon language'"
[that is "you say the phrase 'Klingon language'"]
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons