tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 07 13:28:15 2007
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Re: vIghro'vetlh
mI'qey:
> >>"vay' Dalajqang pagh Dalajqangbe' 'e' vIloy 'e'
> > vInIDDI', Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'."
> >>
> >>points of grammar:
> >>1) is it valid to use a verb with zero prefix for an impersonal
> >>construction such as "it is very difficult" (= *{Qatlhqu'})?
> >>I don't remember whether TKD addresses this kind of usage or not.
Voragh:
> > I don't believe it's covered in TKD, but we have an
> > example of this very verb so used from ST5:
> >
> > Vixis: {tlha'a HoD, DoS wIpuStaH. nejwI' tIQ 'oH.}
> > Captain Klaa, we have a target in sight. A
> > probe of ancient origin.
> >
> > Klaa: {qIpmeH Qatlh'a'?}
> > Difficult to hit?
> >
> > Vixis: {Qatlhqu'.}
> > Most difficult.
> >
> > Klaa: {maj. vISeHmeH Hoch nuHmey Qay!}
> > Good. All weapons to my control. Scope!
mI'qey:
>I think this is a *tiny* bit different from my example. As I read it, the
>subject of {Qatlh} and
>{Qatlhqu'} in this exchange is either {nejwI'} or {DoS} (I interpret the
>English translation the same
>way; as shorthand for "is the ship/the target difficult to hit?").
>
>The example I was trying to translate doesn't offer such a clear candidate
>for the subject of {Qatlhqu'}.
>In fact, what's {Qatlh} in this case is really the whole sentence whose
>main verb is {vIloy}. In English
>we would say "It is very difficult to guess ...", where the true semantic
>subject is "to guess ..." and
>"it" is only a dummy.
>
>Perhaps it's possible to consider the subject of {Qatlhqu'} to be some
>unexpressed noun (such as, say,
>{mIw} or {Qu'}) that refers to the process/task of guessing. If you
>assume something like this, then
>perhaps the ST5 example does provide a precedent.
Well, this is a tricky line. Apparently the actor (or the sound engineer)
dropped the first syllable {wI-} "we [do something] to it". The corrected
line was published by Okrand in HolQeD 8.4:12-13:
Klaa: qIpmeH Qatlh'a' (heard)
[wIqIpmeH Qatlh'a'] (corrected)
"Difficult to hit?"
So this line now translates: "In order for us to hit it, is it difficult?"
Each verb has a different subject - neither of which is {nejwI'} or
{DoS}. As you know, the second "it" is an impersonal filler
subject: {Qatlh'a'} "Is it difficult? It's difficult?" (in
general). Klingon does allow these unstated impersonal or dummy
subjects. For example, we now know that {SIS} simply means "It's raining."
In a way everyone was correct with this one. It rained a few times
during the weekend, so we were put into the situation to discuss it.
{SIS. SISqu'. SIStaH. SISchoH.} All correct. {SISlu'}, although gram-
matically correct, he didn't particularly like... You can also give
it an object and say things like the clouds rained down cats and
dogs... or something like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and
I went outside and drops of water were falling on us, he looked up
and simply said "{SIS}."
[DloraH, personal conversation with Marc Okrand, May 1998]
It's unlikely that the probe {nejwI'} can be the subject of {Qatlhqu'}. We
have two other example of {Qatlh} "be difficult, be complex" in canon:
motlh ray' luSamlaHmeH De' Qatlh cha' tlhIngan Duj jIH'a'
The main viewer on a Klingon ship is usually overlaid with a
complex target acquisition grid. SP3
For example, among Klingons, a task that is difficult ({Qatlh}) is
more highly valued than one that is easy ({ngeD}). (KGT 179)
and two examples of Okrand talking in English about things which are
difficult or complex:
As in any language, Klingon sentences range from the very simple
and straightforward to the very complex and convoluted. (TKD 59)
Wind instruments ... range from the simple flute or fife ({Dov'agh}),
generally crafted from a bone, to the highly complex {meSchuS}. This
is a very large instrument, not at all easily moved from place to
place, which consists of a network of interlocking tubes. (KGT 75)
So we see that data {De'} is {Qatlh}, a task {Qu'} is {Qatlh}; MAYBE
sentences {mu'tlhegh} and musical instruments {QoQ jan} can also be
{Qatlh}. Calling the probe {Qatlh} would probably mean it's a complex or
complicated piece of technology (unlike the extremely simple and primitive
Sputnik I, launched 50 years ago almost to the day). OTOH, {DoS Qatlh} "a
difficult/complex target" might be possible in the sense of a difficult
problem or firing solution.
The real question here is whether an impersonal {Qatlhqu'} can be used in a
sentence-as-object. I'm not sure.
Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'
"It is very difficult. I observe/notice that."
To my anglophone ears, this seems perfectly straightforward. Unfortunately
your original sentence is anything but straightforward:
vay' Dalajqang pagh Dalajqangbe' 'e' vIloy 'e' vInIDDI', Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'.
This has six (count 'em!) six verbs and three SAO's. I'd like to hear from
one of the grammarians.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons