tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 07 13:28:15 2007

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Re: vIghro'vetlh

Steven Boozer ([email protected])



mI'qey:
> >>"vay' Dalajqang pagh Dalajqangbe' 'e' vIloy 'e'
> > vInIDDI', Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'."
> >>
> >>points of grammar:
> >>1) is it valid to use a verb with zero prefix for an impersonal
> >>construction such as "it is very difficult" (= *{Qatlhqu'})?
> >>I don't remember whether TKD addresses this kind of usage or not.

Voragh:
> > I don't believe it's covered in TKD, but we have an
> > example of this very verb so used from ST5:
> >
> >  Vixis: {tlha'a HoD, DoS wIpuStaH.  nejwI' tIQ 'oH.}
> >         Captain Klaa, we have a target in sight. A
> >         probe of ancient origin.
> >
> >  Klaa:  {qIpmeH Qatlh'a'?}
> >          Difficult to hit?
> >
> >  Vixis: {Qatlhqu'.}
> >          Most difficult.
> >
> >  Klaa:  {maj. vISeHmeH Hoch nuHmey Qay!}
> >          Good. All weapons to my control. Scope!

mI'qey:
>I think this is a *tiny* bit different from my example.  As I read it, the 
>subject of {Qatlh} and
>{Qatlhqu'} in this exchange is either {nejwI'} or {DoS} (I interpret the 
>English translation the same
>way; as shorthand for "is the ship/the target difficult to hit?").
>
>The example I was trying to translate doesn't offer such a clear candidate 
>for the subject of {Qatlhqu'}.
>In fact, what's {Qatlh} in this case is really the whole sentence whose 
>main verb is {vIloy}.  In English
>we would say "It is very difficult to guess ...", where the true semantic 
>subject is "to guess ..." and
>"it" is only a dummy.
>
>Perhaps it's possible to consider the subject of {Qatlhqu'} to be some 
>unexpressed noun (such as, say,
>{mIw} or {Qu'}) that refers to the process/task of guessing.  If you 
>assume something like this, then
>perhaps the ST5 example does provide a precedent.

Well, this is a tricky line.  Apparently the actor (or the sound engineer) 
dropped the first syllable {wI-} "we [do something] to it".  The corrected 
line was published by Okrand in HolQeD 8.4:12-13:

Klaa:  qIpmeH Qatlh'a'     (heard)
        [wIqIpmeH Qatlh'a'] (corrected)
        "Difficult to hit?"

So this line now translates:  "In order for us to hit it, is it difficult?"

Each verb has a different subject - neither of which is {nejwI'} or 
{DoS}.  As you know, the second "it" is an impersonal filler 
subject:  {Qatlh'a'} "Is it difficult?  It's difficult?" (in 
general).  Klingon does allow these unstated impersonal or dummy 
subjects.  For example, we now know that {SIS} simply means "It's raining."

   In a way everyone was correct with this one. It rained a few times
   during the weekend, so we were put into the situation to discuss it.
   {SIS. SISqu'. SIStaH. SISchoH.} All correct. {SISlu'}, although gram-
   matically correct, he didn't particularly like... You can also give
   it an object and say things like the clouds rained down cats and
   dogs... or something like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and
   I went outside and drops of water were falling on us, he looked up
   and simply said "{SIS}."
   [DloraH, personal conversation with Marc Okrand, May 1998]

It's unlikely that the probe {nejwI'} can be the subject of {Qatlhqu'}.  We 
have two other example of {Qatlh} "be difficult, be complex" in canon:

   motlh ray' luSamlaHmeH De' Qatlh cha' tlhIngan Duj jIH'a'
   The main viewer on a Klingon ship is usually overlaid with a
   complex target acquisition grid. SP3

   For example, among Klingons, a task that is difficult ({Qatlh}) is
   more highly valued than one that is easy ({ngeD}). (KGT 179)

and two examples of Okrand talking in English about things which are 
difficult or complex:

   As in any language, Klingon sentences range from the very simple
   and straightforward to the very complex and convoluted. (TKD 59)

   Wind instruments ... range from the simple flute or fife ({Dov'agh}),
   generally crafted from a bone, to the highly complex {meSchuS}. This
   is a very large instrument, not at all easily moved from place to
   place, which consists of a network of interlocking tubes. (KGT 75)

So we see that data {De'} is {Qatlh}, a task {Qu'} is {Qatlh}; MAYBE 
sentences {mu'tlhegh} and musical instruments {QoQ jan} can also be 
{Qatlh}.  Calling the probe {Qatlh} would probably mean it's a complex or 
complicated piece of technology (unlike the extremely simple and primitive 
Sputnik I, launched 50 years ago almost to the day).  OTOH, {DoS Qatlh} "a 
difficult/complex target" might be possible in the sense of a difficult 
problem or firing solution.

The real question here is whether an impersonal {Qatlhqu'} can be used in a 
sentence-as-object.  I'm not sure.

   Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'
   "It is very difficult. I observe/notice that."

To my anglophone ears, this seems perfectly straightforward.  Unfortunately 
your original sentence is anything but straightforward:

   vay' Dalajqang pagh Dalajqangbe' 'e' vIloy 'e' vInIDDI', Qatlhqu' 'e' vItu'.

This has six (count 'em!) six verbs and three SAO's.  I'd like to hear from 
one of the grammarians.




--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons






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