tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 10 08:48:25 2007
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Re: usage of type-7 aspect suffix {-pu}
Doq:
> >> (chenmoH is an action verb, not a stative one -- it
> >> would be stative without the -moH)
mI'qey:
> > I don't understand this. I don't know how {chen} is
> > used in canon (other than as part of {chenmoH}), but
> > it's defined as "build up, take form" and this doesn't
> > seem like a stative concept to me. Isn't taking form
> > (unlike "having form") an active process rather than a
> > state?
Doq:
>{chen} is an odd word and I don't know that we've been given really
>good canon to help explain how to use it.
Actually, we have several examples and even a few comments by Okrand:
{chen} "build up, take form, take shape"
4 + 3 = 7
wej boq loS; chen Soch
[four plus three equals seven]
"four allies with three; seven forms" (HQ 9.3)
4 ? 3 = 1
loS boqha' wej; chen wa'
[four minus three equals one]
"three dissociates from four, one forms" (HQ 9.3)
2 x 3 = 6
cha'logh boq'egh wej; chen jav
[two times three equals six]
"twice, three allies with itself, six forms" (HQ 9.3)
6 / 3 = 2
wejlogh boqHa''egh jav; chen cha'
[six divided by 3 equals two]
"three times, six dissociates from itself, two forms" (HQ 9.3)
{chenHa'moH} "destroy something"
chenHa'moHlaH
It can destroy them
("It can cause them to undo their form"). TKD
{chenmoH} "build, form, make, create"
TKD 38: {chenmoH} "he/she makes, creates" could be translated "he/she
causes to take shape" ({chen} "take form, take shape"), but this is an
awkward English phrase.
st.k 11/97): ... say {vIchennISmoH} for "I need to create it".
st.k 2/23/98: {chenmoH} "form, make, create" is the verb {chen} "build up,
take form" plus the Type 4 suffix {-moH} "cause". To say "make again", the
Type 3 suffix {-qa'} "do again" should come before the Type 4 suffix. Thus,
you should say {vIchenqa'moH} "I make [it] again".
tIjwI'ghom vIchenmoH
I form a boarding party. TKD
TKD 38: This sentence might also be translated "I cause a boarding party
to be formed".
wIchenmoHlaH
We can create it. TKD
yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the Unforgettable. S8
DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'
Set fire on the side when there is danger. PK
tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq wa'DIch'e'
1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World. KBoP
Derived nouns and noun phrases from {chen}:
{chenmoHlu'meH Daq} "construction site" KBoP
{chenmoHwI'} "creator, maker" KGT
KGT 79: the sculptor ({Hew chenmoHwI'} [literally, "statue creator"])
> One thing is clear, though.
>It is intransitive without {-moH}. There is a being which takes form.
>It doesn't take form something else, though something else can cause
>it to take form.
>
>In terms of being stative, I doubt it would be meaningful
>adjectivally. "Could you please hand me the take-form knife?" It's
>not like "hot" or "cold" or "tall" or most of the other stative verbs.
lay'tel SIvten [lay'SIv]:
>I don't think it's stative at all, but it's dynamic, indicating a *change* of
>state, as opposed to static.
QeS:
>The canon for arithmetic, the only examples we have of the verb, seems to
>lay out pretty well how its semantics work: {wej boq loS; chen Soch} "four
>fuses with three; seven forms". From that, it seems that {chen} is dynamic
>in nature, which is one of the things that quality verbs fundamentally
>cannot be. One could probably say something like {naDev chentaH ghom'a'}
>"a crowd is forming here" (although {naDev lughomqu'lu'} might be a little
>more Klingon) or {chen HuD tlheghmey 'ej chenHa'} "mountain ranges take
>shape and collapse". I wouldn't accept anything that put {chen} in
>adjectival position: I can't even work out how I'd translate *{HuD chen 'oH}.
>
>In short, I'd agree with lay'SIv and say that {chen} is probably not a
>quality verb.
Would other dynamic verbs include {moj} "become" (which, unlike {chen}, is
transitive):
yaS vImojpu'
I became an officer. TKD
yaS DImojpu'
We became officers. TKD
DIHIvbe'ch[ugh] qo'chajDaq toy'wI''a' DImoj
Attack or be slaves in their world. ST6
bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh
Klingons are born, live as warriors, then die. TKW
wa' jaj 'etlh 'uchchoHlaH tlhIngan puqloD; jajvetlh loD nen moj
The son of a Klingon is a man the day he can first hold a blade. TKW
yejquv DevwI' moj ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI' Dapu'bogh janluq pIqarD
HoD
Gowron... named leader of the High Council by Captain Jean-Luc Picard,
who was acting as Arbiter of Succession. S25
{gheS} "assume the duties of", {bogh} "be born}, {Hegh} "die", {cho'}
"succeed (to authority)", {lu} "fall from power" and of course {choH}
"alter, change"? Interestingly, none of these have been used with the
suffix {-choH} (change in state/direction) which makes perfect sense if
lay'SIv and QeS are correct that these verbs are inherently "dynamic,
indicating a *change* of state, as opposed to static". Using {-choH} on a
dynamic verb would be redundant.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons