tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu May 19 21:56:54 2005

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Re: Subtle shadings of "then": Okrand's error ?

QeS lagh ([email protected])



Sorry I've taken so long to get this one, but there's been a combination of 
exam time at university, hard labour at home, and the fact that there's some 
bits of this email I just don't know what to do with...

jIja'pu':

>You've missed my point, methinks. I didn't say "MO was wrong".

jang juDmoS (?):

>Ooookay, then, I'll say it. Okrand, like all humans, makes mistakes/errors.

'e' vISov. {{:) 'ach naDev Qaghlaw'pu'be'. We have many examples where 
Okrand has made slight errors in grammar. {wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran} in KGT is 
another example where he probably had a bit of a lapse. We just have to know 
what to do with the apparent errors as we find them.

>Only a cursory listening to the audiotape "Power Klingon" can tell you 
>that..(twenty-one o'clock?).

In the 24-hour time system, 21 o'clock is 9 pm. It's often done this way in 
a lot of languages (usually, European ones), including French: "vingt et une 
heures". I'm not sure that this is necessarily an error.

>So, to strike while the iron is still hot and before the fog moves in...

>ghobe', Hoch ram SoHmo' jInaj 'e' DaSovbe' (no, you don't know that you 
>cause me to dream every night)

maj. For the original "You don't know the one who dreams of you at night" I 
would have done it a bit differently, but this is fine. As in any language, 
there are different ways of doing things.

>'uychuq wuSDu'maj 'ej qa'uchqu' 'e' vIneH 'e' DaSovbe' (you don't know that 
>I want to really hold you, and to press our lips together)

You may want to try {chop} "bite". Klingons bite as part of their courtship 
rituals, and in the Radio Times interview MO gave {HIchop, bang} as a 
literal translation of "Give us a kiss, love".

>SoHvaD juplI' jIH neH DaSovchu'be'mo' (To you I'm only a friend.. because 
>you don't really know me)

maj. I'm not sure that you need {-lI'} here (it's a bit redundant), but if 
you want to leave it there that's not a problem. As well, the emphasis seems 
slightly wrong to me: {juplI' jIH neH} is a bit ambiguous IMO, and could 
mean "Only I am your friend" - I would have said {juplI' neH jIH} "I am only 
your friend". That may be just a matter of style thugh, and I'd be 
interested to hear other opinions on the matter.

Also, there's a line missing here. :P "That's all I've ever been". I suggest 
{ret ghaH neH jIHtaH} "in the past, I continued to be only it/him/her" (with 
{ghaH} referring back to the previous "friend").

>For I never knew the art of making love, (half of skill lies in knowing 
>what you can do..the other half lies in knowing what you cannot. I'm not 
>ready to try this one yet.)

chaq DanIDrupbe'... 'ach yInID! {{:) maQagh, matlhoj, 'ej maghoj.

>SoHvaD parmaqwIjmo' 'oy' tIqwIj (My heart aches due to my love for you)

maj.

>jIyoHHa'mo' jIjaqHa'mo' je'  narghpu' 'ebwIj 'e' vIchawpu'  (Because I was 
>not brave, and because I was not bold, I allowed my chance to escape)

There's no glottal stop at the end of {je}; as well, you can't join two verb 
phrases with {je}, which is reserved for nouns (TKD section 5.3). You'd need 
to say {jIyoHHa'mo' 'ej jIjaqHa'mo'... (etc)}.

>chaq jIHvaD parmaq Daghoj 'e' 'ebwIj 'oH (that is my chance that you 
>perhaps may have love for me..)

Hmm. Tougher, this one. :) You've got a typo in there ("have" is {ghaj}; 
{ghoj} is "learn"). From there, the problems start to get messier.

The first part is grammatical: {chaq jIHvaD parmaq Daghaj} "perhaps you feel 
love for me". But firstly, you've got two objects with {'oH}: one of them 
would need to come at the end (remember, Object-Verb-Subject). Even with 
that dealt with, I don't think you can really use {'e'} with a 
pronoun-as-verb in this way. You might have to recast that too: perhaps to 
something with {-meH}. To be honest, I can't think of an easy way of doing 
this without making a drastic recast.

I'll be waiting to hear the end of it!

Savan,

QeS lagh
taghwI' pabpo' / Beginners' Grammarian


not nItoj Hemey ngo' juppu' ngo' je
(Old roads and old friends will never deceive you)
     - Ubykh Hol vIttlhegh

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