tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Apr 06 16:53:27 2005

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Re: ghe''orDaq luSpet (Re: pIpyuS Sarghmey je)

QeS lagh ([email protected]) 

Sorry I didn't get around to this one a bit sooner.

tlhob Clayton:
>What about the canon example {ghe''orDaq luSpet} (a black hole in the
>Netherworld) [PK, BOP]?

I didn't know that {ghe''orDaq luSpet} was on BoP. Maybe you're thinking of 
the other counterexample {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey}, which *is* on BoP AFAIK.

jangpu' lay'tel SIvten:
>This can also be translated as "In the netherworld your place is a black 
>hole." (i.e., your *proper* place). There is no connection in the Klingon 
>between {ghe''orDaq} and {luSpet}.

Very well put. {ghe''orDaq luSpet} are two parts, not one, of the whole 
sentence {ghe''orDaq luSpet 'oH DaqlIj'e'}. {ghe''orDaq} is functioning as a 
normal header noun here. It's just that the translation obscures that fact, 
and seems to imply that this is an abnormal noun-noun construction. This is 
the danger of taking free translations too literally.

Nevertheless, there *is* the canon example {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey} on the BoP 
poster, which does appear to be an abnormal noun-noun construction. This, 
though, is nothing more than an error IMHO; the same meaning could have been 
conveyed with the garden-variety noun-noun construction {tel wovmoHwI'mey} 
"wing lights". (Similarly, *{ghe''orDaq luSpet} "a black hole in the 
netherworld" could be rendered as {ghe''or luSpet} "a netherworld black 
hole".)

Just remember: one counterexample doesn't necessarily invalidate a rule. 
This is something I grappled with for a time. {{:) There are plenty of canon 
errors to be found; the trick is knowing what to do with them.

If you're interested, I maintain a page on the Wiki about a few major 
grammar issues, of which this is one:

/wiki/index.php?Common%20Grammar%20Questions%20And%20Problems

Savan,

QeS lagh
taghwI' pabpo' / Beginners' Grammarian


not nItoj Hemey ngo' juppu' ngo' je
(Old roads and old friends will never deceive you)
     - Ubykh Hol vIttlhegh

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