tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Mar 25 13:44:35 2004

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Re: That's not canon

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

De'vID:
> > In the case of <Dajatlhbogh vIyajbe'>, I think an argument can
> > be made either way.  On the one hand, Okrand said it.  On the
> > other hand, it's not in the final version, and it's *possible*
> > that the reason it isn't is because Okrand changed his mind.
> > I don't have the KCD with me so I can't determine where that
> > sentence was supposed to be said or whether it has been replaced
> > by something else.

SuStel:
>There is no place in the final program where the phrase is appropriate.
>It's very likely the phrase was meant to accompany the speech-recognition
>part of the program.

But De'vID doesn't realize that the two .wav files in question were, in 
fact, in the final version they distributed:

   Dajatlhbogh vIyajlaHbe'
   "I find no match for what you just said." (Disk 3, file \wav\3k.wav)

   yIjatlhqa'
   "Please say it again."  (Disk 3, file \wav\3e.wav):)

If you wanted to, you can go through the CDs and play each and every .wav 
file in sequence -- which is how it was discovered.

> > Suppose we had access to earlier drafts of the Klingon dictionary
> > or Star Trek scripts showing something Okrand wrote, but for
> > which he has since changed his mind.  In fact, we have something

We have all dreamed of this!

> > like that in <ma'> (v) "accomodate", which originally meant
> > "tell" (or "command"?).  If we had access to an earlier version of
> > Star Trek III, and we saw Okrand write /ma' = tell/, we wouldn't
> > consider that canon because we know Okrand has since changed his
> > mind, and canonically <ma'> means "accommodate".  In the case
> > of the KCD, some programmer kept around an unused file that
> > might have been an earlier rejected draft, and I'd tend to see
> > it the same way as if I saw some Klingon in an early draft of
> > a Star Trek script.  Okay, it's more authoritative than something
> > some writer at Paramount just made up (from an Okrandian-only
> > canon point of view), but isn't it somehow less authoritative
> > than if it appeared in print or in a finalized product?
>
>There is this constant impression that Okrand writes his own material.
>Okrand typically TRANSLATES material written by others (e.g., Power Klingon
>was written by Barry Levine).  If in the course of revision the script is
>changed, Okrand may need to change his translation.  He changes his mind
>about the Klingon in order to accommodate the script.  This is a change to
>Klingon.

It also happens that Okrand translates all the Klingons' lines from an 
earlier draft of the script but later, when it came down to actually 
filming the scene, the producers/director for some reason decided to film 
it in English, instead of the Klingon Okrand provided for them.  (Perhaps 
one of the actors was really bad at Klingon, perhaps the director didn't 
want to have too many scenes with subtitles.  Who knows?)

Okrand has kept this material, and some of it has later surfaced.  For 
example, some of the Klingon which wasn't used in ST3 eventually showed up 
as grammatical examples in TKD.  Another example:  Okrand published some of 
the Klingon lines which weren't used in the final cut of ST5 in "HolQeD" 
(vol. 8, no. 4).

I agree with SuStel:  It's important to realize that all this material was 
always canonical, but until its publication, it was just unknown to the 
wider community of Klingonists.  Canonicity is not the same thing as 
publicity.

>Is it possible that the /Dajatlhbogh vIyajbe'/ phrase in KCD was dropped by
>Okrand?  Yes, but it is far, far, FAR more likely that it was dropped by
>someone else, someone involved in the operation of the program.  Comparing
>this to a changed script is not valid: there is no change, there is only a
>deletion.  There is no reason for Okrand to say, "The Klingon cannot be this
>now."

Absolutely.  The fact that the game writers dropped whatever trigger that 
caused this sound file to be played is utterly irrelevant.  Okrand wrote it 
and AFAIK he has never disowned it;  unfortunately, AFAIK he has never 
explained - or explained away! - the odd grammar either.



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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