tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Sep 06 07:10:57 2002

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Re: Hoch (was: Names for noun functions)

From: "Quvar valer" <>

> >The third one is a "possessive" role, according to TKD.  Examples such as
> >{baS 'In} or even {tlhIngan Hol} tell us it's a little broader in scope
> >than literal possession/ownership, but the concept is clear.
> What does {tlhIngan Hol} mean literally?
> while making one of my word-group-lists, I found following words:
> "nationalities" seem to precede the noun:
>   tlhIngan - tlhIngan Hol ("klingon language")
>   tIqa' - tIqa' vIghro' ("tika cat")
>   romuluS - romuluS HIq ("romulan Ale")
>   verengan - verengan Ha'DIbaH ("ferengie dog")
>   vIno'va' - vInova' qurgh ("finova beans")

This is why we've been considering the first noun of a noun-noun
construction to be a genitive noun.  It's more than just possessive.  The
first noun modifies the meaning of the second noun.  This is why ghunchu'wI'
said it's more than just literal possession.  That it is genitive is pretty
clear.  There are many more examples.

> I don't know what these are called, but they also precede the noun
>   bID - bID choQ ("half deck")
>   latlh - latlh qab ("other face")
>   Hoch - Hoch Dujmey ("all ships")
>   Hoch - Hoch Duj ("every ship")

I'd say these fall under the same genitive category (though case isn't my
thing).  I consider these to be "number nouns," or "counting nouns" or
"quantity nouns."  They act pretty much like numbers.  Another noun that
acts like this is /'op/.

> Why does this following phrase not fit?
>   nIn Hoch natlhlu'pu'
>   "All the fuel has been consumed"
> Is that something about countable things, or do klingons not count?

We've also seen what I believe was /vatlh DIS poS cha'maH wejDIch HochHom/
"most of the 23rd Century" (or something like that), where /HochHom/ came
after the thing it was modifying.

These two examples make me believe that when these "quantity nouns" come
before the nouns they're modifying, they count the number of instances of
that noun; if they come after the nouns they're modifying, they indicate the
portion of a single instance of that noun.

The perennial example:

Hoch chab
each pie

chab Hoch
the whole pie

'op chab
some pies

chab 'op
some of the pie

While I feel confident that this is what is going on, it hasn't been
confirmed by Okrand.

Stardate 2681.7

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