tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Oct 14 10:56:31 2002
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RE: KLBC: Two quick questions
- From: "qurgh lungqIj" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: KLBC: Two quick questions
- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:56:32 -0400
- Importance: Normal
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Holtej, qatlho'!
bIqar. DaH lo'vam vIyaj. ngeDqu' lo'vam.
I did take a look in the archive for the answer, but as you pointed out,
the search feature doesn't work so it was very slow going... Qatlh De'
tu'meH Qu'.
qurgh
> -----Original Message-----
> From: d'Armond Speers [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:35 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: KLBC: Two quick questions
>
>
> ghItlh qurgh:
>
> >I received the latest copy of HolQeD over the weekend and after
reading
> >it from cover to cover two questions have popped up.
> >
> >The first one is from HoD Qanqor's article.
> >
> >He mentions a formula which I haven't seen before:
> >
> ><verb>meH Qu'
> >
> >I think it is a case of "I wasn't pay attention and missed it" but I
was
> >wondering what this is commonly translated as? To me it means "a duty
> >for doing the verb" but I'm guessing that there is something else to
it.
> >Could you expand on it for me?
>
> It's times like this I wish the search function on the list archives
was
> working again. I believe this idea was proposed/developed by
charghwI',
> the
> master recaster, as a way to express ideas like "It's difficult to
kill a
> Klingon" or "Killing a Klingon is difficult." charghwI' had spent a
lot
> of
> time thinking about the use of {-meH}, in particular how it behaves
when
> modifying nouns rather than verbs.
>
> (If anyone has a different recollection of this, please correct me.
My
> memory for such things is not as good as some other participants
here.)
>
> The specific issue is that you can't use a sentence as a subject. You
can
> use a sentence as an object, using the pronouns {'e'} or {net}. But
> there's
> no counterpart for a subject.
>
> Sentence as object:
> {tlhIngan vIHoH 'e' Dalegh}
> You saw that I killed a Klingon.
>
> How would you say, "Killing the Klingon was difficult"? You can't do
it
> like this:
>
> * {tlhIngan vIHoH 'e' Qatlh}
>
> You can make two sentences out of it:
>
> {tlhIngan vIHoH. Qatlh ('oH).}
>
> In this case, you're using the pronoun {'oH} (whether it's stated or
not,
> since pronouns are optional) to represent the idea of the whole
sentence
> {tlhIngan vIHoH}. But wait a minute, a pronoun replaces a noun, not a
> sentence. You couldn't say, for example:
>
> * {tlhIngan vIHoH. Qatlh 'e'.}
>
> So, what is the subject of {Qatlh}? It must be a noun. And if you
want
> to
> use that noun in a sentence, rather than a pronoun, what do you do?
>
> charghwI' found an answer in his analysis of {-meH}, and came up with:
>
> {Qatlh tlhIngan HoHmeH Qu'.}
>
> So, presumably, the {'oH} in {tlhIngan vIHoH. Qatlh 'oH.} represents
a
> noun
> like {mIw}, {Qu'}, etc.
>
> The literal translation of {HoHmeH Qu'} is really awkward in English,
but
> it's attested in forms like {ghojmeH taj}. So, the form has been
> generalized, {<verb>-meH Qu'}, again I believe as suggested by
charghwI',
> to
> illustrate its general usefulness. I'd say it's now commonly used and
> understood without hesitation by most folks on this list.
>
> ngeDqu' lo'vam yajmeH Qu'.
>
> >The second question was from Brent Kesler's article on -be' and -Ha'.
> > >qatlho'
>
> I'll let someone else have a go at this.
>
> >qurgh
>
> --Holtej 'utlh
>
>
> --
> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
> [email protected]