RE: KLBC: Two quick questions

["qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@kdfs.net>]

Holtej, qatlho'!

bIqar. DaH lo'vam vIyaj. ngeDqu' lo'vam.

I did take a look in the archive for the answer, but as you pointed out,
the search feature doesn't work so it was very slow going... Qatlh De'
tu'meH Qu'.

qurgh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: d'Armond Speers [mailto:speersdl@msn.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:35 AM
> To: tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org
> Subject: Re: KLBC: Two quick questions
> 
> 
> ghItlh qurgh:
> 
> >I received the latest copy of HolQeD over the weekend and after
reading
> >it from cover to cover two questions have popped up.
> >
> >The first one is from HoD Qanqor's article.
> >
> >He mentions a formula which I haven't seen before:
> >
> ><verb>meH Qu'
> >
> >I think it is a case of "I wasn't pay attention and missed it" but I
was
> >wondering what this is commonly translated as? To me it means "a duty
> >for doing the verb" but I'm guessing that there is something else to
it.
> >Could you expand on it for me?
> 
> It's times like this I wish the search function on the list archives
was
> working again.  I believe this idea was proposed/developed by
charghwI',
> the
> master recaster, as a way to express ideas like "It's difficult to
kill a
> Klingon" or "Killing a Klingon is difficult."  charghwI' had spent a
lot
> of
> time thinking about the use of {-meH}, in particular how it behaves
when
> modifying nouns rather than verbs.
> 
> (If anyone has a different recollection of this, please correct me.
My
> memory for such things is not as good as some other participants
here.)
> 
> The specific issue is that you can't use a sentence as a subject.  You
can
> use a sentence as an object, using the pronouns {'e'} or {net}.  But
> there's
> no counterpart for a subject.
> 
> Sentence as object:
> {tlhIngan vIHoH 'e' Dalegh}
> You saw that I killed a Klingon.
> 
> How would you say, "Killing the Klingon was difficult"?  You can't do
it
> like this:
> 
> * {tlhIngan vIHoH 'e' Qatlh}
> 
> You can make two sentences out of it:
> 
> {tlhIngan vIHoH.  Qatlh ('oH).}
> 
> In this case, you're using the pronoun {'oH} (whether it's stated or
not,
> since pronouns are optional) to represent the idea of the whole
sentence
> {tlhIngan vIHoH}.  But wait a minute, a pronoun replaces a noun, not a
> sentence.  You couldn't say, for example:
> 
> * {tlhIngan vIHoH.  Qatlh 'e'.}
> 
> So, what is the subject of {Qatlh}?  It must be a noun.  And if you
want
> to
> use that noun in a sentence, rather than a pronoun, what do you do?
> 
> charghwI' found an answer in his analysis of {-meH}, and came up with:
> 
> {Qatlh tlhIngan HoHmeH Qu'.}
> 
> So, presumably, the {'oH} in {tlhIngan vIHoH.  Qatlh 'oH.} represents
a
> noun
> like {mIw}, {Qu'}, etc.
> 
> The literal translation of {HoHmeH Qu'} is really awkward in English,
but
> it's attested in forms like {ghojmeH taj}.  So, the form has been
> generalized, {<verb>-meH Qu'}, again I believe as suggested by
charghwI',
> to
> illustrate its general usefulness.  I'd say it's now commonly used and
> understood without hesitation by most folks on this list.
> 
> ngeDqu' lo'vam yajmeH Qu'.
> 
> >The second question was from Brent Kesler's article on -be' and -Ha'.
> > >qatlho'
> 
> I'll let someone else have a go at this.
> 
> >qurgh
> 
> --Holtej 'utlh
> 
> 
> --
> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
> dspeers@bigfoot.com