tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Mar 13 10:09:52 2002

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Re: jIH vIchuHlu' - Words mentioned earlier but not in the

SuStel speaks very well here. Yes, these are the ideals of the list and the 
closer we hold to them, the better.

Of course, sometimes SuStel and I and others here get rather passionately 
wrapped up in seeking agreement over what is right and what is wrong. Part of 
what makes us as good at this as we are is that we feel compelled toward a 
particular understanding of things and we honestly believe that if others 
understood what we were trying to explain, then they'd naturally agree...

So, we explain repeatedly with minor changes in shade of meaning and increasing 
insistance until flames break out from time to time. This is not a good thing, 
but it seems impossible to avoid.

The important thing is that we all really do agree that the only person with 
real authority with this language is its creator, Marc Okrand. The only person 
with authority in the KLI is Lawrence Schoen. The only people with authority 
about the running of this Email list are Mark Shoulson and d'Armond Speers. The 
only person with authority as to what gets listed in the New Words List or not 
is Will Martin.

Marc has authority because it is his language. If you doubt that, just talk to 
Viacom's lawyers. 

Lawrence has authority over the KLI because he started the KLI and has put a 
remarkable amount of careful work into directing its political and financial 
survival. He makes connections between people who would otherwise have never 
met, gets permission to do things from corporations who would normally never do 
such a thing, uses his scholarly background to make HolQeD something it 
couldn't be without that knowledge, and generally goads volunteers into making 
things happen that otherwise couldn't happen.

Mark and d'Armond have authority over the list because, well, SOMEBODY has to 
do it, so in exchange for all the work they do to set up and maintain the list, 
we give them that authority. 

Krankor was the first and only grammarian for years, then he passed on the role 
to Mark, and while Mark is not particularly active here as grammarian, Mark 
never passed on the role to anyone else. The Beginners' Grammarian is a newer 
concept with a lesser authority, since the BG's job is to simultaneously be a 
teacher and a student. Think of them as grad students.

d'Armond put together the certification program. Likely it was his own idea, 
but never would have finished it without Lawrence's goading. That's what 
Lawrence does, after all.

I have authority over the New Words List because, well, SOMEBODY has to do it. 
In exchange for the work I've done to set up and maintain the list, I get to 
decide what goes on the list or not. I'm not interested in abusing that power. 
I listen to the general consensus of what others think and the areas of 
disagreement are minor enough that nobody gets particularly upset if my 
arbitrary choice doesn't completely agree with theirs. If the group thought 
someone else would do this better, I'd be happy to pass that role on to someone 
else. Anybody interested? SuStel?

Others are involved in other programs here, gaining their authority over each 
program just because of the time and effort they put into those efforts, 
coordinating things with Lawrence, who ties them in with the KLI. I'm not 
actively involved in these programs, so I'm sure there is a lot more going on 
than I know about. I definitely do not mean to slight anyone by omitting their 
good effort here.

All the BGs and matlh jupna'pu' are more like seasoned warriors. We've been 
around and most of the time, we know what we are talking about, but at best, 
our authority is described as "informed opinion". We want what is good for the 
list and what is good for the language. Sometimes we get carried away and 
exceed our rightful authority and others are quite justified in pointing that 
out to us.

In particular, in the past, SuStel and I disagreed fairly often, though more 
recently, our opinions agree often enough that I write less in part because I 
look at what he wrote and can't add anything meaningful to it. Even when I 
believed that he was outright wrong, I also continued to consider him to be a 
peer. His authority equals mine for grammar, etc. As frustrating as that has 
been at times for me, it's obvious that it has been equally frustrating to him 
that my opinion has just as much authority as his does.

So, we work this out as a community and seek consensus where we can, keeping 
points of disagreement at the fringes where they matter less. The Klingon 
language is a small language, a small culture, a small community, a small 
society and an interesting game to share. I hope we keep it fun for many years 
after Viacom forgets it existed. It's amazing that it got this far.

Will

> From: "qe'San (temp ADSL email)" <[email protected]>
> > IF Okrand "examined to verify something is as represented" and it was
> > published as such, I would again ask the list if that meant it was
> > considered canon by the KLI.. If I don't who else can someone ask for
> advice
> > like that.
> 
> I think the only voices who can really speak for the KLI here are Mark and
> Lawrence.  The rest of us can only give our opinions.  And my opinion is
> that "What is canonical?" is a fuzzy enough issue that some personal
> judgement is necessary.  Do YOU feel that the novel's word list should be
> used in YOUR writing or speech?  How are you going to deal with the fact
> that some people may not be aware of the novel's vocabulary?
> 
> The KLI's purpose is explained on its website: The "bringing together
> individuals interested in the study of Klingon linguistics and culture, and
> providing a forum for discussion and the exchange of ideas."  It is not the
> arbiter of what is and is not correct Klingon, nor are any of its members.
> This mailing list has a number of Grammarians -- these people are recognized
> as having exceptional skill in the language.  As stated in the list's FAQ:
> "The Grammarians are here to help, mainly by offering their insight and
> expertise with Klingon, and to keep discussion on-point. Rarely will a
> Grammarian make a heavy-handed judgement; more often, they will offer advice
> and direction. The role of the Grammarian was created to allow some
> 'official' view of correct use of Klingon on the list."
> 
> I call on all Grammarians to heed this description, and try to live by it.
> Help, do not hinder.  I call on everyone else to think freely about
> Klingon -- do not let anyone dictate how you are to study or use it.  The
> KLI and this list are tools for you to take advantage of, not enforcers of
> language.
> 
> SuStel
> Stardate 2196.1
> 
> P.S.: In my opinion, unless Marc Okrand goes and writes it himself, I'm not
> inclined to have it on any "official" word list.  Marc has more fans than
> just the KLI, and doesn't need us tracking his every move in the language.
> Marc's stance is clearly that he has built an arena in which people may
> enjoy themselves, and if it works for you then it works.  Some people may
> find that some things work that the KLI doesn't agree with, and that doesn't
> make these people wrong.  If Marc says, "That's okay," it makes those people
> right in their own contexts, but that doesn't mean it belongs on a
> KLI-maintained list of "official" words.
>

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