tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Mar 06 12:59:57 2002
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Re: jIH vIchuHlu' - Words mentioned earlier but not in the New Words list?
- From: [email protected]
- Subject: Re: jIH vIchuHlu' - Words mentioned earlier but not in the New Words list?
- Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:59:40 GMT
I see that ghunchu'wI' has replied as well. I am concerned that the real
meaning of this thread is getting splintered. I think it is getting crushed
under the weight of recursive discussion.
My problem with the original post was that the question you say you intended to
ask was not asked clearly. Since that time, instead of simply starting over and
stating the question clearly, we are all participating in too much talk about
the question without actually asking it or answering it.
I'll start by seeing if I can imagine what your actual question would be if you
were to actually ask it, and then see if I can then answer that imaginary
question. I'll try to do this in a way that best benefits the most people here.
The core of your question seems to be:
What is canon?
While several of us have made stabs at answering this, I think there is a focal
point to the answer that has not sunken in yet. Canon is not just "anything
from Okrand." Canon is anything in a verifiable form from Okrand.
To illustrate, I'll give my version of some history about certain words. qun
qon charghwI' net Sov.
Many of us love the word {'I'} and its method for becoming canon. The juicy
part of the story begins when peHruS wrote in, telling me I needed to include
it in the New Words List. He didn't remember where he got it, but he was SURE
it was from Okrand. We argued about it for a couple weeks.
ghunchu'wI' went back through the archives and found that it actually was a
word that ~mark, the grammarian at the time, had made up in an argument he was
making AGAINST making up our own words. Someone wanted us to just make up new
words without Okrand. ~mark said, "But if we do that, how is someone out there
who bought TKD, but never heard of the KLI going to know that {'I'}
means 'armpit'?" It was a joke. We forgot it.
But peHruS put it in his word list and didn't record the source. We can't fault
him too much for that. In those days most people had word lists with no
citations of the source. This was not uncommon.
So, we had this funny story to tell Okrand at the next qep'a'. He heard it and
laughed with the rest of us, but then got a mischevious grin and said, "But you
know, there really is a Klingon word for 'armpit'."
This got our attention. We uttered a collective, "Really? What is it?"
He grinned and said, {'I'}.
Everybody had a hearty laugh. Okrand was enjoying his ability to turn a mistake
into canon. It's like he's got a magic wand. He backfits a lot of his own
errors or those of the movie production crew he's involved in. Why not do it
for us sometimes, too? On whim, he can do that. Now {'I'} really is the Klingon
word for "armpit". We still smile when we say the word, though.
I considered it "confirmed" because we had lots of witnesses at qep'a' loSDIch.
No one person's inaccurate memory would make us put a mistake in the word list.
Okrand later put the word in KGT, so I removed it from the New Words List. It
is canon.
Then, there's the word {meqleH}. In some novel, some author made up the
word "mek'leth" as some sort of one-handed variation of a {betleH}. At this
point, it was not a word in the Klingon language.
Later, a victim of a painful, degenerative disease decided that as part of his
pain management therapy, he'd focus his attention on building incredibly
artistic renditions of every Klingon bladed weapon. He read about the mek'leth
and built an amazing artifact. He brought it to a con where Okrand got to see
it.
As Okrand later tells it, he stood there, holding this... THING of remarkable
beauty that wouldn't have ever been made if not for a word in this strange,
little language he had made up. He was experiencing a moment of awe in this. He
said he felt humbled.
The builder then asked him how you pronounced the name in Klingon. Okrand saw
the word "mek'leth" and leaned into the builder's microphone hooked up to his
computer and said, {meqleH}.
Unfortunately, he didn't spell {meqleH} for the builder, who then wrote to the
KLI asking for the correct Klingon spelling. He was referred to me and I
listened to the .wav file he sent. I heard {meqleH}. It's a phonetic language
and the recording was quite clear. This is easy enough.
Still, I felt that I needed to confirm this with Okrand. Because of an
interview I had done earlier with Okrand, I had his Email address. I very much
respect the man's privacy and do not use that address under anything close to
normal circumstances. He has no interest in being mobbed, and I don't really
consider myself to have much of a special right to bother him. He apparently
had several Email addresses at the time and only paid attention to one of them,
and he told me which one, in case I ever needed it.
Anyway, here was a guy who was in great pain, uncertain of his longevity with a
rather passionate interest in getting this name right. He was about to engrave
a plaque. It's not like a casual note that can be edited later. I wrote Okrand.
He confirmed the spelling. I put the word in the New Words List. I later
removed it when Okrand put it in KGT. It is canon.
The words in the novel "Sarek" took a while to be included in the New Words
List because, while there was the claim that the author got the words from
Okrand, I needed to confirm what the words were, how they were spelled and I
had to confirm that the words actually were okayed by Okrand.
As it turns out, it became a fairly large effort on my part for very little
reward. The author had claimed that Klingon language had been used in the book
when actually it was just a couple nouns, mostly of animal names for animals
that had very little description in the book. It seemed like she felt like she
was so cool for having real Klingon in her book, but she made so very little
use of that resource. She threw in a few nouns in the middle of English
sentences. The nouns were spelled right.
That's pretty much the beginning and the end of it. She spelled a couple
Klingon animal names in ways that fit Klingon syllable format. I did get it
confirmed that Okrand actually gave her the words. I have very little zeal for
this sort of work. It doesn't really add anything useful to the language for a
person who actually wants to speak it. Perhaps it is more fascinating to
someone who fantasizes using the language without actually getting around to
doing it. I'd rather have one {'arlogh} than a hundred fictitious animal names
or proper names of places or people.
So, you seem to want to quote words from yet another novel that tosses a few
more proper names and animal names at us. You also seem to have a few other
words you'd like tossed in, though the details of these requests get lost in
all this talk about your question without actually asking it. I'll deal with
each in extracted quotes below.
..
> I believe infamous place names like [Suto'vo'qor] are important but again
> the list is yours to decide.
Please cite for me the source you have for the name {Suto'vo'qor}. It does seem
to follow the basic rules of Klingon pronunciation, though it could have been
made up by anybody who knows how Klingon words are formed. I need to confirm
that Okrand actually made this up or confirmed that it was right. I can't just
take your word that Okrand "vetted" it. If I did that, I would have included
{'I'} in the list much earlier than I did.
..
> > Anything Okrand explicitly approves in a verifiable form is
> > canon. We got a couple of nouns out of the novel "Sarek";
> > mostly for animals we know little about, so it's not like the
> > words pop up in daily conversation, but they did get added to
> > the list. Meanwhile, the novel that has you so enthused here
> > seems to offer a couple planet names. Did I miss anything?
>
> I believe so... Forgetting names what about
> boqrat chej, ghojmoHwI', ghapoq, jeghpu'wI', ma' to'vor, mong'em, ra'taj,
> Suto'vo'qor (sorry had to put that name in) & tIqleH. (Full Glossary at the
> bottom)
I don't remember seeing any of these words in your original message. I looked
for something like this, but I didn't see them. Now, since this message is so
obscured by recursive discussion, I know nothing of the source for any of these
words.
{boqrat} is already in KGT.
{chej} is already in KGT.
I don't feel like I need to put every possible animal-organ-as-food combination
together as separate entries in the word list.
{ghojmoHwI'} is a simple suffixed word. It could go in or not and not make much
difference, since one can look at {ghoj}, {ghojmoH} and {ghojwI'}, which are
already in TKD and figure out {ghojmoHwI'} fairly easily. I try to reserve
space in the New Words list for words that are either original (not already in
any of the other excluded word lists) or used in some way that you could not
easily figure out from other entries. I also include definitions of words used
in canon translations that differ from the gloss in the dictionary because I
can see that as useful to people wanting to understand the focus of a
definition when it could be ambiguous from the gloss.
{ghapoq} - I have no idea what this word is supposed to mean. I'm guessing it
is a noun, since it has two syllables. Nouns and adverbs are the two kinds of
words that most commonly have more than one syllable. With few exceptions,
everything else is monosyllabic until you add prefixes or suffixes, and neither
of these syllables are known Klingon affixes.
{jeghpu'wI'} - That's a simple suffixed word. One who has surrendered. Unless
Okrand made some sort of big deal of it, offering some shade of meaning that
isn't obvious, I wouldn't include it in the New Words List.
{ma' to'vor} - Looks a lot like a proper name. It would take some talking to
convince me that we need Yet Another Proper Name for the dictionary.
{mong'em} - Is this the composit {mong + 'em}? Does it mean "area behind the
neck"? I could use some context here, and the source.
{ra'taj} is already in KGT.
{Suto'vo'qor} - What's the source for this? I need to confirm that Okrand
actually did give this spelling. It has to be a source I can check. Your word
is not enough. Other people have to be able to check my sources or they can't
accept the list as authoratative.
{tIqleH} - I don't know this word. I need the source and the meaning in a form
I can verify that Okrand has verified.
My point here is that the New Words List is not a fan's collection of every
utterance that claims to be Klingon. It is a working vocabulary for people who
want to learn to use the language. It has two functions:
1. To supplement the published works of Marc Okrand to give the complete,
official word list for the language.
2. To filter out (by not including) words that don't belong in that working
vocabulary.
I don't salivate at the opportunity to add new words. I consider each new word
and greet it with a zeal that is proportionate to the certainty that I have
that the word is really from Okrand and it will be useful to the Klingon
speaking community. I feel no rush to pack in words I don't understand yet or
can't confirm yet are actually from Okrand.
I can not accurately present words I don't understand, and I do not wish to
pollute the language with anything that didn't come from Okrand. None of
this, "My girlfriend r'HSnaqtor says she thinks 'Stovokor' is spelled
{SItovoQur} in Klingon."
..
> > > But the question is still valid. Is the source
> > > considered canon by the KLI.
>
> Although indirectly answered ... my question again. I thought it was
> straightforward.
You keep talking about "it", but you never actually express "it". That's my
frustration. At this point we are talking about you talking about me talking
about you talking about me talking about your question. Please just stop it and
ask the question. I feel like we are stroking egos more than we are actually
asking anything. Let the question stand for itself. Stop representing "it" with
pronouns. Do you actually want anything answered or do you just want attention?
Ask your question and stop talking about the question without asking it.
> > You still have not stated your "word". I'm apparently supposed
> > to pick it out myself from this earlier Email that includes a lot of
> > words, most of which are in the Addendum or KGT. Be direct
> > and you'll get a more direct answer.
>
> I accept that I had not given you an example but that would not of helped
> answer whether or not the glossary was canon.
WHAT glossary?
> Which was the question and
> specified in the first five lines of the original email.
No, it wasn't.
> If you really want one.
If I really want one what? That's not even a complete sentence. Spit it out!
Say what you mean instead of always referring to something you think you've
already said. If your original message had been clear enough, we wouldn't be
having this discussion now. Referring back to a message that was not clear in
the first place does not clarify things.
> The word that got me going was jeghpu'wI'. If the source is canon
> then for Klingons to name a conquered people this would surely be a [-wI']
> word worthy of inclusion in the New Word List? That's a question not a
> demand.
What source? You say, "If the source is canon..." What source? Your message has
become word salad. Maybe you mentioned the source somewhere. I don't recall
seeing it.
> > What's wrong with actually asking your question, directly,
> > simply and without a lot of distracting wrapping?
>
> I did! What's was wrong with answering my question and not yours even when
> I told you that wasn't my question.
Okay, fine. What is your question?
Just start from scratch. Don't refer back to anything. Just ask the question.
Don't refer to something as a "canon source" without explicitly citing it so I
can go back and look at the source, myself. Until I've checked out the source,
I don't intend to add any words to the New Words List.
Don't give me words without definitions or sources.
Give me a question I can answer and resources I can work with. I'm losing
patience with you, feeling increasingly like offering my attention to more
rewarding efforts.
> Perhaps someone has had a go about
> proper names not on the list.. I have not. Please do not crussify me for
> something I haven't asked.
It sounds like you crussify easily. I'm just trying to figure out what you
want, and whether or not you are offering me anything I can use for the list.
If you DO, then I really AM interested. I'm trying to stay open about this,
though your rather indirect style of communication makes this difficult.
You prefer to suggest something without saying it, then later refer back to
your suggestion as if what you originally intended had been stated quite
plainly, when it never was. You seem to go to great lengths to evade simply
saying what you want or what you offer.
If you can't improve on this, then you are about to become ignored, since I'm
becoming convinced that dealing with you is a lot like wasting my time. You can
still convince me otherwise, but it will require a change in communication
style real soon now if you want that result.
> Yes there was a misunderstanding but surely once
> pointed out you could've let it be and not continued to have a go.
Just start over. Ask your question. Present your words, their definitions and
sources.
> > Will
>
> qe'San
>
> Now the full Glossary as promised thanks to De'vID:
Okay. This is the first time I've seen this list. If you had sent it in the
first place, I'd have better understood.
Meanwhile, when I see what seems to be the listed sources, they have nothing to
do with Okrand and everything to do with the various TV shows. The TV shows are
notorious for making stuff up without ever bothering to talk to Okrand.
I don't have time to deal with this now. Until you offer a citation for each
word linking it back to Okrand, I don't have any use for it. As it is, it looks
like a fan's collection of TV words and novel words with that fan's definition
as best as he can honestly derive one. It has very little to do with Okrand's
language, however.
I have no problem with people collecting lists like this. I do have a problem
with people suggesting that entries on this list should be included in the New
Words List.
By all means, start your own dictionary. I don't write Oxford telling them what
words I think they should include in their dictionary. They cite sources they
choose to respect. I cite Okrand sources. I don't cite others.
Will
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "De'vID" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 7:33 AM
> Subject: Diplomatic Implausibility glossary
>
> > --- begin ---
> >
> > bat'leth (betleH) Curved, four-bladed, two-handed weapon.
> > This is the most popular handheld, edged weapon used by
> > Klingon warriors, due to its being favored by Kahless. The
> > legendary Sword of Kahless was a bat'leth, and most Defense
> > Force warriors are proficient with it. [First seen in
> > Reunion" (TNG).]
> >
> > bekk (beq) A rank given to enlisted personnel in the
> > Defense Force. [First referenced in "Sons and Daughters"
> > (DS9).]
> >
> > bok-rat liver, stewed (boqrat chej) Food made from the liver > of a
> bok-rat, apparently cooked to some degree, making it
> > unusual among Klingon foods. [First seen in "Soldiers of the
> > Empire" (DS9).]
> >
> > bregit lung (bIreQtagh) Food made from the lung of an
> > animal, presumably a bregit. [First seen in "A Matter of
> > Honor" (TNG).]
> >
> > cha'DIch Literally, "second." During a legal proceeding, the
> > accused is denied combat, and so must have a second, called
> > a cha'DIch, to defend him or her. [First referenced in "Sins of
> > the Father" (TNG).]
> >
> > chech'tluth (chechtlhutlh) An alcoholic beverage best
> > served heated and steaming. The word seems to derive from
> > the verbs meaning "to drink" and "to get drunk." [First seen in
> > "Up the Long Ladder" (TNG).]
> >
> > d'k tahg (Daqtagh) Personal dagger. All Defense Force
> > warriors carry their own d'k tahg, which is personalized with
> > their name and House. [First seem in Star Trek III: The
> > Search for Spock.]
> >
> > gagh (qagh) Food made from live serpent worms. [First
> > seen in "A Matter of Honor" (TNG).]
> >
> > ghojmoHwI' Teacher or mentor.
> >
> > gladst (tlhatlh) Food made from brown leaves, best served
> > without sauce. [First seen in "Melora" (DS9).]
> >
> > glob fly (ghIlab ghew) Small, irritating insect with no sting,
> > which makes a slight buzzing sound. [First referenced in "The
> > Out- rageous Okona" (TNG).]
> >
> > grapok sauce (gha'poq) Condiment, often used to bring out
> > the favor in gagh or racht. [First seen in "Sons and
> > Daughters" (DS9).]
> >
> > Gre'thor (ghe'tor) The afterlife for the dishonored dead --
> > the closest Klingon equivalent to hell. [First mentioned in
> > "Devil's Due" (TNG).]
> >
> > Grishnar cat (ghISnar) Small animal, apparently not a very
> > vicious one, though with perhaps a predilection for trying to
> > sound fiercer than it actually is. [First referenced in "The Way
> > of the Warrrior" (DS9).]
> >
> > Ha'DIbaH Animal. Often used as an insult. [First used in
> > "Sins of the Father" (TNG).]
> >
> > HuDyuQ A mountainous planet. The name derives from the
> > words meaning "mountain" and "planet."
> >
> > jatyIn According to legend, spirits of the dead that possess
> > the living. [First mentioned in "Power Play" (TNG).]
> >
> > jeghpu'wI' Conquered people -- more than slaves, less than
> > citizens, this status is given to occupants of worlds conquered
> > by the Klingon Empire.
> >
> > krada legs (Qa'Da') Food made from the extremities of a
> > krada. [First mentioned in "The Sound of Her Voice" (DS9).]
> >
> > lingta (lIngta') Large game animal indigenous to Qo'noS.
> > [First seen in "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong
> > Places" (DS9).]
> >
> > Mauk-to'Vor (ma' to'vor) A death ritual that allows one who
> > has lost honor to die well and go to Sto-Vo-Kor by being
> > honorably killed by a House-mate or someone equally close.
> > [First seen in "Sons of Mogh" (DS9).]
> >
> > mek'leth (meqleH) A sword-like one- or two-handed weapon
> > about half the size of a bat'leth. [First seen in "Sons of Mogh"
> > (DS9).]
> >
> > mong'em maneuver A parry where you thrust a sword or
> > other edged weapon behind your neck in order to block an
> > attack from the rear.
> >
> > par'Mach (parmaq) Love, Klingon style -- with much more
> > intense connotations than the English word. [First used in
> > "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" (DS9).]
> >
> > petaQ Insult with no direct translation. Sometimes
> > Anglicized as pahtk. [First used in "The Defector" (TNG).]
> >
> > pipius claw (pIpyuS pach) Food made from the claw of an
> > animal. [First seen in "A Matter of Honor" (TNG).]
> >
> > Qam-Chee (qamchIy) According to legend, an ancient
> > village on Qo'noS where Kahless and Lukara fought a great
> > battle, a major component of their courtship. [First mentioned
> > in "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" (DS9).]
> >
> > Qang Chancellor. A new class of Defense Force ships, of
> > which the I.K.S. Gorkon is one, is the Qang-class, and all are
> > named after past chancellors of the empire (three of the
> > others in the line are the I.K.S. Gowron, the I.K.S. Azetbur,
> > and the I.K.S. K'mpec).
> >
> > Qapla' Ritual greeting that literally means "success." [First
> > used in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.]
> >
> > qelI'qam Unit of measurement roughly akin to two
> > kilometers. Sometimes Anglicized as kellicam. [First used in
> > Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.]
> >
> > QI'yaH Interjection with no direct translation. [First used in
> > "Sins of the Father" (TNG).]
> >
> > Qo'noS The Klingon Homeworld. Sometimes Anglicized as
> > Kronos. [First referenced by that name in Star Trek VI: The
> > Undis- covered Country.]
> >
> > racht (raHta') Food made from live serpent worms (not to
> > be confused with gagh). [First seen in "Melora" (DS9).]
> >
> > raktajino (ra'taj) Coffee, Klingon style. [First seen in "The
> > Passenger" (DS9).]
> >
> > ramjep bird Avian life-form indigenous to Qo'noS that only
> > comes out in the dark. Name literally means "midnight."
> >
> > rokeg blood pie (ro'qegh'Iwchab) Food apparently made
> > from or with the blood of an animal, possibly a rokeg. [First
> > seen in "A Matter of Honor" (TNG).]
> >
> > Rura Penthe (rura' pente') Prison planet mostly covered in
> > ice. [First seen in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.]
> >
> > R'uustai (ruStay) Literally, "the bonding," this is a ritual that
> > allows an orphan to join another House. [First seen in "The
> > Bonding" (TNG).]
> >
> > Sto-Vo-Kor (Suto'vo'qor) The afterlife for the honored
> > dead, where all true warriors go after they die to fight an
> > eternal battle. The closest Klingon equivalent to heaven.
> > [First mentioned by name in "Rightful Heir" (TNG).]
> >
> > taD An ice-covered colony planet. The word literally
> > means "frozen."
> >
> > targ (targh) Animal that is popular as a pet, but the heart of
> > which is also considered a delicacy. [First seen as a pet in
> > "Where No One Has Gone Before" (TNG) and as a food in "A
> > Matter of Honor" (TNG).]
> >
> > tik'leth (tIqleH) An edged weapon, similar to an Earth
> > longsword. [First seen in "Reunion" (TNG).]
> >
> > toDSaH Insult with no direct translation. Sometimes
> > Anglicized as tohzah. [First used in "The Defector" (TNG).]
> >
> > Ty'Gokor (tay'ghoqor) A planet where the induction into the
> > Order of the Bat'leth takes place. [First seen in "Apocalypse
> > Rising"
> > (DS9).]
> >
> > zilm'kach (tlhImqaH) Food made from something orange.
> > [First seen in "Melora" (DS9).]
> >
> > --- end ---
> >
> >
> > --
> > De'vID
>
>