tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jun 13 10:55:19 2002
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Re: sequence (was Re: KLBC: Phrase)
Okrand wrote on st.klingon:
> >It is possible to join the sentences with a conjunction such as {'ej} and
> >or {'ach} but:
> > wam chaH 'ej ghIq Soj luvut.
> > They hunt and then they prepare food.
Andrew Strader wrote:
>I defer this to an interesting tidbit on Klingon grammar recorded on Teresh's
>home page.
> [...]
>6.2.1. Compound sentences
> 1.The conjunction 'ej merely indicates the (simultaneous?) occurence
>of two events; there is no time sequence implied, eg. mabom 'ej matlhutlh
>"We sing and we drink", not *"We sing and then drink" [MSN, 3/20/98]
> 2.Sequence seems to be indicated by the lack of a conjunction, eg.
>bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh "Klingons are born, become warriors,
>then die."; beyHom bey bey'a' jachtaH "They are letting out an ever-louder
>howl." [TKW, p5; S31]
Here's the full text of Okrand's post on the old MSN expert_forum (3/20/98)
for those interested:
As far as I know, {'ej} means "and" in the sense of "in addition," "also,"
"as well as," and the like. It does not have any temporal or sequential
implications. That is, it does not (by itself) mean "and then."
For example, Klingon {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh} "I eat and I drink" means
"I eat
and also I drink." It could refer to events that occur in alternating
fashion
(eat some, drink some, eat some, drink some more) or, especially in the case
of some Klingons, events that occur pretty much simultaneously. It could
also
mean "I eat and then I drink," but it does not necessarily mean that. If
that
is the intended meaning (and if being a little vague or ambiguous or unclear
will cause misunderstanding and hence discomfort), additional stuff must be
added or the whole thing must be rephrased to make the meaning explicit
(such as {jItlhutlhpa' jISop} "before I drink, I eat".
Similarly, the most likely interpretation of {jItlhutlh 'ej jIQong} "I
drink
and I sleep" is not that I drink in my sleep (though it could be used
for that
if I really did it), but rather simply "I drink and also I sleep," a listing
of two things I do, presumably (but not explicitly) not at the same time.
Then there's {qaDuQ 'ej bIregh} "I stab you and you bleed". It
probably would
be used when the stabbing precedes (and is the direct cause of) the
bleeding. But
it doesn't explicitly say that; it only says "I stab you" and it also
says "you
bleed."
The sequential interpretation (and/or the cause-and-effect
interpretation) is
due to the way the world works. Or some worlds. Since it is possible to say
either {jISop, jItlhutlh} "I eat, I drink" or {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh} "I
eat and
I drink" to refer to the same thing, it might seem as though {'ej} is
optional.
Grammatically, that's fair to say. In terms of meaning, however, when
{'ej} is
used, it adds something; it emphasizes or points out some sort of connection
between the two events--though not necessarily a temporal one.
Finally, although I've been referring to "events," the same holds for
states
and conditions and the like. Thus, {jIghung 'ej jIQeH} "I'm hungry and
I'm angry"
could be used if first I'm hungry and then (whether as a result of the
pangs or
not) I get angry, or if I'm hungry and angry at the same time, or if I waver
between the two. In short, {'ej} is neutral as to time.
Okrand later revealed the adverbials {ghIq} "and then, after that, by then,
subsequently" in HolQeD 8.3 and {ngugh} "then, at that time", {tagha'}
"finally, at last" and the idiomatic phrase {pumDI' ['etlh]} "by then, by
that time" (lit. "when it [the blade] falls") on st.klingon (11/05/99)
which - in addition to the verb suffixes {-DI'} "as soon as, when", {-pa'}
"before" and the adverbial {vaj} "so, then, thus, in that case" already
known from TKD - provide more precise control over the "temporal or
sequential implications".
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons