tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 29 13:40:17 2002

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Re: -lu' and -be', small aside on Paul Simon

Sulu wa':
> >> Can -lu' and -be' be used as -lu'be' to imply that there is no
> >> subject for a particular action, or that nobody
> >> does it? Perhaps an example will explain what I mean:
> >>
> >>   *Paul Simon* Sovlu'be'. noybe'.
> >>   No-one knows Paul Simon. He is not famous.

   Paul Simon Sovbe'lu'.
   Paul Simon is unknown.

   Paul Simon Sov pagh.
   No-one (nobody) knows Paul Simon.

We'd have to ask Maltz which one is stronger or more likely to be taken 

> >>   noy *Paul Simon*. 'ach Sovbe'lu'.
> >>   Paul Simon is famous. Even so, some people do not know him.
> >>
> >> Is this usage possible? DuH'a' mu'tlheghmeyvam?

> > As far as I know MO has not explicitly explained this, but what we know of
> > suffix order, I agree with this.  This is how I have been using it.

>I don't think it works.  /-lu'/ means "indefinite subject."  Does that mean
>/-lu'be'/ means "definite subject"?  That doesn't make sense.
>/-lu'/ doesn't mean "someone, the opposite of no one."  It means "indefinite
>I think that /-lu'/ itself can't be negated.  You might put /-be'/ after it,
>increasing the scope of /-be'/ to the entire verb rather than to just the
>suffix (we've seen this done elsewhere).
>   loDvetlh Sovbe'lu'.
>   loDvetlh Sovlu'be'.
>   That man is not known.
>I tend to prefer the former of these two.

As does Okrand.  The usual order is indeed {-be'lu'}:

   'entepray' Hub patmey luchu'be'lu'pu'
   Enterprise defense systems are down. (MO's ST5 notes)

   pujwI' HIvlu'chugh quvbe'lu'
   There is no honor in attacking the weak. TKW

   batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'
   One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably. TKW

   Heghlu'DI' mobbe'lu'chugh QaQqu' Hegh wanI'
   Death is an experience best shared. TKW

   'oy'be'lu'chugh Qapbe'lu'
   No pain, no gain. TKW

   noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may'
    DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'
   Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle
    to save an empire is no defeat. TKW

   'u' SepmeyDaq Sovbe'lu'bogh lenglu'meH He ghoSlu'bogh retlhDaq 'oHtaH
   It waits...on the edge of the galaxy, beside a passage to unknown regions of
    the universe... (SkyBox DS99)

The only example of {-lu'be'} I can find is:

   SuvwI'pu' qan tu'lu'be'
   There are no old warriors. TKW

Note that {tu'lu'} "there is, there are" is a bit irregular.  The above TKW 
example is the only example we have of a negated {tu'lu'}.

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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