tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Mar 25 20:32:37 2001
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RE: KLBC. Jereissati ghob ngoq
- From: "Stauffer, Tad E (staufte7)" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: KLBC. Jereissati ghob ngoq
- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:31:30 -0500
'aqratIyo' said:
> 'aqratIyo' 'oH pongwIj'e'.
>
maj.
Welcome to the list, 'aqratIyo'! You obviously know about using KLBC in your
messages, so I'll skip my regular intro.
> How do lists like "A, B, C, and D" translate?
> I didn't find any shortened versions like «A B C D je», so I decided
> to use «A B je C je D je» meaning "((A and B) and C) and D".
>
Voragh already explained that {je} goes after all of the nouns. To avoid
possible confusion, you could also separate each noun with commas.
> The Jereissati are a clan in my micronation, the United Vulcan
> Federation of Socialist Republics. Their structure is very
> hierarchical and based on a moral code, which I made an attempt to
> translate:
>
> (the original is in german and can also be found on the Jereissati
> website at http://www.jereissati.org and at
> http://www.decagon.de/martok/codex.htm)
>
> German: Codex der Jereissati
> tlIngan Hol: *Jereissati ghob ngoq
> English: Jereissati Moral Code
>
The Klingon word {ngoq} is defined as "code". I have always assumed that
this refers to something such as a secret code, or a group of symbols
encoding a message. I don't know if we have any specific evidence to show
which meaning {ngoq} uses, so you could use something such as {chutmey}
("laws"). You are describing a "code" that people should abide by, which is
a system of laws.
> Jedes Mitglied des Jereissati-Clans muss einen Eid auf diesen
> Codex ablegen, indem es sich verpflichtet, niemals gegen ihn zu
> verstoßen. Jereissati, die gegen diesen Codex verstoßen, werden aus
> dem Clan verbannt.
>
> ngoqvamvaD 'IpnIS Hoch *Jereissati tuq beq 'ej ngoQvamvaD not bIv
> 'e' lay'nIS. tuqvo' ngoqvam bIvpu'bogh *Jereissati beq luDaSlu'.
>
> Every member (crewman) of the Clan of Jereissati must swear an
> oath on this code by undertaking never to violate it. Jereissati who
> violate this code are banished from the clan.
>
For "member of the Clan of Jereissati", what you used was good. However, we
have a relatively new word which would work also. The word {tuqnIgh}, which
appears on page 9 of HolQeD Vol. 9 #3, means "a member of a house". So
rather than {Hoch *Jereissati tuq beq}, you could say {Hoch *Jereissati
tuqnIgh}.
ghunchu'wI' already mentioned that {DaS} is the noun "boot", and suggested
using {ghIm}. As he stated, the German edition of TKD has various errors, so
if you have a problem with a word's definition, you may want to compare it
against the English TKD to make sure that you are using the original English
term.
> §1 Wir Jereissati glauben, dass alle intelligenten Lebensformen
> gleich sind. Jeder, der andere Humanoide wegen ihres Aussehens, ihrer
> Sprache, ihrer Religion oder aus anderen Gründen diskriminiert, ist
> deshalb als Feind der Jereissati zu betrachten und zu bekämpfen.
>
> wa') rapchuq Hoch yoq mutmey DIBmey 'e' wIHar; 'ej *Jereissati
> maH. qechvammo', *Jereissati jaghna' ghaH, qabDajmo' HolDajmo' joq
> lalDanDajmo' joq latlhmo'joq latlh yoqvaD maybe'bogh, vay''e' 'ej
> pajnISmeH maSuvqang, 'e' wImeqnIS maH.
>
> §1 We the Jereissati believe that (the rights of) all humanoid
> species are equal. Everyone (someone) who discriminates against other
> humanoid people for reasons of their appearance, language or
> religion, or for different reasons, shall therefore be regarded as an
> enemy of the Jereissati and be fighted.
>
{rap} is defined as "be the same", and not "be the same as". So the subject
of this verb would be the things that are the same. There would be no object
of the verb.
You said *{rapchuq Hoch ... DIbmey}, which would be "All ... rights are the
same each other". If you just remove the suffix {-chuq} ("each other"), then
this will be correct.
> §2 Wir Jereissati verhalten uns im Kampf niemals unehrenhaft!
> Verwundete, Unbewaffnete, Zivilisten und Gegner, die sich ergeben
> haben, stehen unter dem Schutz dieses Codex und des jeweiligen
> Kommandanten.
>
> cha') not maHIgh; 'ej *Jereissati maH! rIQwI'pu' 'omlaHbe'wI'pu'
> je Suvbe'bogh rewbe'pu' je jeghpu'bogh gholpu' je Qan ngoqvam poHchaj
> joH je.
>
> §2 We the Jereissati never act dishonourably in battle! Injured
> people, non-combattants, civilians and enemies who have surrendered
> are protected by this Code and the regarding chief.
>
Again, use {je} at the end of a list of nouns, and separate them with a
comma to make them easier to read.
It looks like you translated "the regarding chief" as {poHchaj joH}. When I
read {poHchaj joH}, I translate it as "the lord of their time period", which
might not be what you mean.
What exactly is the "regarding chief"? You could simply say their "lord",
"boss", or "leader". Using {poH} ("period of time") is probably unnecessary
here.
> §3 Wir Jereissati glauben, daß die freie Meinungsäußerung ein
> Grundrecht jedes Humanoiden ist. Deshalb kämpfen wir gegen jede Form
> der Zensur.
>
> wej) vay'vaD QIjlaHghach weghbe'lu'bogh DIbna' teqlaH pagh 'e'
> wIHar; 'ej *Jereissati maH. qechvammo' Hoch jabbI'ID SeHghach
> wIlajQo'.
>
> §3 We the Jereissati believe that the free expression of voice is
> everyone's unalienable right. For this reason, we fight against any
> kind of censorship.
>
No problems here.
> §4 Niemals beugen wir Jereissati uns einem faschistischen,
> imperialistischen Regime, seiner Verfechter, oder seinen Schärgen,
> selbst wenn diese Einstellung unseren Tod bedeutet.
>
> loS) *Jereissati maH 'ej not nujIjmoHlaH tlhab jagh HI'tuy, wo'
> ngotlhwI' qumqoq joq, Qochbe'wI'Daj joq, toy'wI'Daj joq. ghIqtal:
> qechvam wIbIvbe'taHqu'.
>
> §4 Never shall we the Jereissati surrender to a fascist,
> imperialist regime, to its apologists or its lackeys, even if this
> attitude means our death. («ghIqtal» probably isn't valid here)
>
The word {joq} ("and/or") most likely works in the same way that {je} does,
so you would place it at the end of a list of nouns.
When you said {tlhab jagh HI'tuy}, it appears that you are saying
"independence's enemy dictatorship". This sounds wordy to me, and simply
using {HI'tuy} might work better.
> §5 Alle Jereissati gehorchen dem Kommandanten und ihrem
> Vorgesetzten, solange nicht berechtigte Zweifel an seiner Ehre und
> seinem Verstand bestehen. Kein Jereissati spricht je die Unwahrheit,
> außer er wird von feindlichen Kräften verhört und kann sich nicht
> durch Schweigen vor dem Verrat retten. Wir Jereissati sterben für
> unsere Überzeugung, die dieser Codex festhält.
>
> vagh) joH moch je jobqang Hoch *Jereissati beq; pagh SaHlaH
> batlhDaj Hon'a' yabDaj Hon'a' je. not mujwI' ja'qang *Jereissati beq;
> pagh ghaH yu'lI' jagh negh 'ej, 'urmangvo' junmeH, pagh jatlhlaHbe'.
> qech'a'meyvaD naDevDaq qonlu'ta'bogh maHeghrup; 'ej *Jereissati maH.
>
> §5 All Jereissati obey to the chief and their commanding officer,
> unless there are legitimate doubts regarding his honour or reason. No
> Jereissati shall ever say the untruth, unless he is questioned by
> hostile forces and unable to avoid treason by remaining silent. We
> the Jereissati are ready to die for our conviction described by this
> Code.
>
You have a typo - the first verb should {lobqang} ("they are willing to
obey"), and not *{jobqang}.
{Hon} ("doubt") is only a verb, and not a noun. You could try to find a noun
that means something similar, such as {qaD}.
Your sentence {pagh SaHlaH batlhDaj *Hon'a' yabDaj *Hon'a' je} sounds quite
ambiguous to me, because {pagh} and {SaH} could mean two different things
here.
Rather than saying "They will obey them; or doubts will be present ", you
could say "If doubts (or challenges, etc.) are absent, they will obey them".
{...mujwI' ja'qang...} ("He is willing to tell a wrong one") could be
misinterpreted as telling something to a person who is wrong. A simpler
solution would be to use the verbs {vIt} ("tell the truth") or {nep} ("lie,
fib"). For example:
{not vItHa' *Jereissati beq} "A Jereissati will never mis-tell the truth"
Again, {pagh jatlhlaHbe'} ("he cannot say nothing") could be made less
ambiguous by avoiding the word {pagh} here. In the previous case, it meant
"or", but in this case it means "nothing". To avoid this confusion, you
could use another word, such as the verb {pegh} ("keep a secret"). For
example:
{peghlaHbe'} ("he cannot keep a secret")
The last sentence of this section is particularly confusing to me. We can't
say *{naDevDaq} - this would be something like *"at here". Normally, we
would just say {naDev} ("here"). However, we can simplify the sentence by
looking at what it really means. One possible way would be to rewrite it as:
"The Jereissati are ready to die, in order to follow these laws that
describe the ideas"
{qech'a'mey Delbogh chutmeyvam} "these laws that describe ideas"
{qech'a'mey Delbogh chutmeyvam DIpabmeH} "in order for us to follow these
laws that describe ideas"
{qech'a'mey Delbogh chutmey DIpabmeH, maHeghrup} "We are willing to die, in
order for us to follow these ideas that this code describes"
> Besonderheiten der einzelnen Jereissati-Garden
> *Jereissati weymey Delchu'ghach
> the Jereissati guards en detail
>
> Als Forscher der Jereissati beteilige ich mich niemals an
> unethischen Forschungen, der Entwicklung von Folterinstrumenten oder
> irgendeiner Art von Versuch an Humanoiden.
>
> *Jereissati QeDpIn jIHchugh not batlhHa' jIHaDqang 'ej not joy'
> janmey vI'oghqang 'ej not ngongvaD yoqpu' jIlo'qang.
>
> As a Jereissati research officer (if I am a J. res. officer) I
> shall never participate in unethical research, the development of
> instruments of torture or any kind of experiment with humanoid beings.
>
We have a verb {Qul} ("research"), which you could use instead of {HaD}
("study").
{joy'} is only a verb, and not a noun. So you should say {joy'meH janmey}
("devices for the purpose of torturing").
Instead of saying {not ... vI'oghqang} ("I will never be willing to
invent..."), you could use the verb suffix {-Qo'} ("won't, don't").
For example:
{...vI'oghQo'} "I won't invent..."
To me, this sounds stronger than "I'll never be willing..." This comment
also applies to other places where you've used {not} and {-qang} in the same
sentence.
Also, for {yoqpu' jIlo'qang}, you want to use the verb prefix {vI-} instead
of {jI-}. The object is {yoqpu'} and so the prefix should indicate "I -
them".
> Als Exekutor der Jereissati beteilige ich mich niemals an
> Plünderungen oder anderen Vergehen an Zivilisten oder besiegten
> Gegnern sondern schütze sie, wenn nötig mit meinem Leben. Gegen jedes
> unehrenhafte Vorgehen auf dem Schlachtfeld gehe ich vor, selbst wenn
> es ein Verbündeter ist, der das Gesetz der Ehre bricht.
>
> *Jereissati wangwI' jIHchugh not Hejchu'ghach'a'vaD jImuvqang.
> Suvbe'bogh rewbe'pu'vaD gholpu'vaD lujeylu'ta'bogh joq jIHeSqangbe'
> 'ach vIQanmeH jIHeghrup. che'ronDaq Hoch HeS vIbotqang. boq
> qochwI''e' vImevqang je batlh chut bIvrupchugh ghaH.
>
> As a Jereissati executive officer I shall never participate in
> plunderings or other offences against civilians or defeated enemies,
> but protect them, giving my life if necessary. I interfere with every
> dishonourable action on the battlefield, even if it's an ally who
> breaks the laws of honour.
>
I believe you have a typo with *{wangwI'}, since I don't recognize the verb
*{wang}. Do you mean something like {ra'wI'} ("commander") or {DevwI'}
("leader")?
{-vaD} ("for") isn't appropriate to use on {rewbe'pu'} and {gholpu'} here,
since the crimes are *against* them. They don't benefit from the crimes.
Instead of {HeS}, you could consider using a different verb, such as {QIH}
("wrong, treat unjustly"), and use {rewbe'pu'} and {gholpu'} as the object
of the verb {QIH}.
> Als Organisator der Jereissati beteilige ich mich an keinerlei
> Komplotten, führe mein Amt zum Wohle des Clans und des Staates und
> stelle dafür alle persönlichen Interferenzen, Abneigungen und
> Zuneigungen zurück.
>
> *Jereissati loHwI' jIHchugh not jIQuSqang. tuqvaD qumvaD je lI'meH
> QapwIj; ghotpu'vaD Hoch muSujbogh Sighmey Hoch maSbe'chugh je Hoch
> maSqa'chugh je vIqImHa'qang.
>
> As a Jereissati administration officer I won't participate in any
> conspiracies, but make my job to the benefit of the clan and the
> state. All my personal interferences, aversions and preferences shall
> be subordinated to this purpose.
>
Your sentence here, {tuqvaD qumvaD je lI'meH QapwIj}, doesn't have a main
verb. You might just want to leave off the {-meH}, so that {lI'} ("be
useful") is the main verb.
The noun for "success" is {Qapla'}. {Qap} is only a verb, meaning "succeed,
work". So you would say:
{tuqvaD qumvaD je lI' Qapla'wIj} "My success is useful for the clan and for
the government"
The section {Hoch muSujbogh Sighmey, Hoch maSbe'chugh je, Hoch maSqa'chugh
je} should be changed. {SIgh} ("influence") is only a verb, not a noun.
I believe that you may have meant to write {-bogh} instead of {-chugh} here
twice.
As far as the actual translation goes, at least to me, it seems confusing.
You reworded the sentence well by using {vIqImHa'qang} ("I am willing to
disregard them"). If you rephrased the rest sentence (i.e., the things which
the administrator is willing to disregard), it would be easier to
understand, without having to refer back to the original version.
> §6 Wir Jereissati schwören hiermit, das Haus des Martok immer vor
> seinen Feinden zu schützen und seine Mitglieder im Notfall mit
> unserem Leben zu verteidigen.
>
> jav) reH martaq tuqvaD jaghpu'Daj DIHeDmoHqang 'ej beqDaj DIHubmeH
> maHeghrup, 'e' DaH wI''Ip; 'ej *Jereissati maH.
>
> §6 We the Jereissati hereby swear always to protect the House of
> Martok from its enemies and to defend its members with our lives in
> cases of emergency.
>
For the sentence *{'e' DaH wI'Ip}, {'e'} is the object of the verb, and so
it should go right before the verb, as with any other objects. Try not to
think of {'e'} as connecting two sentences, since it doesn't always go
between the sentences. Instead, think of {'e'} as a single pronoun, so that
it would be:
{DaH 'e' wI'Ip} "Now we swear that"
> §7 Gerät einer von uns in Not, so hat der übrige Clan die Ehre im
> beistehen zu dürfen. Jedes Clanmitglied wird verteidigt, wenn es sein
> muß auch gegen unsere Verbündeten. Niemals liefern wir einen
> Jereissati an andere Kräfte aus!
>
> Soch) maH wa'vaD 'Qoblu'chu'chugh, ghaHvaD boQ lunoblaH latlh
> beqpu'. DIbvam 'oH batlh'e', 'e' luSov chaH. Hoch tuq beq wIHubnIS.
> wIHub je ghaH, jaghpu'Daj chaHchugh boq qochpu'ma'. Not negh novvaD
> *Jereissati beq wIbupqang!
>
> §7 If one of us gets into trouble (is perfectly threatened), the
> rest of the clan (the other members) shall be honoured to assist him
> (they may help him and feel honoured). Every member of the clan must
> be defended, be it against our allies. We shall never extradite a
> Jereissati to other (foreign) forces!
>
For the first clause here, {maH wa'vaD 'Qoblu'chu'chugh...}, "one of us"
sounds awkward when literally translated as {maH wa'}. Perhaps using
something like {tuqnIghma'} ("a member of our house") would work better.
Also, {-vaD} isn't exactly what you would want to use here, since the person
is not benefitting from being threatened. {Qob} actually means "be
dangerous". So instead of saying "if something is dangerous for them", you
could say "if they are threatened". This would be:
{tuqnIghma' buQlu'chu'chugh...} "If a member of our house is perfectly
threatened..."
When you say {wIHub je ghaH...}, remember that {ghaH} is whom you are
defending. It is the object of the verb, and so it should go before the
verb.
{bup} means to "quit", so it would be better if you used a different verb to
mean "extradite".
> §8 Wir verteidigen unsere Freunde gegen jede Art von Bedrohung.
> chorgh) juppu'ma' DIQanmeH Hoch che'ronDaq maSuvrup.
> §8 We shall defend our friends against every kind of threat.
> (I don't know if the metaphor works.)
>
> §9 Wir verteidigen unsere Ehre, die persönliche und die des Clans.
>
> Hut) ghot batlhmeymaj tuq batlhmaj je DIQanqang.
> §9 We defend our honour, regarding ourselves personally and the
> clan as a whole.
>
maj.
> §10 Die Feinde eines Jereissati sind die Feinde aller Jereissati,
> die Freunde eines Jereissati sind Freunde des Clans!
>
> wa'maH) Hoch Jereissati beqpu' jaghpu' chaH wa' Jereissati beq
> jaghpu'e', 'ej tuq juppu' chaH wa' Jereissati beq juppu'e'!
>
> §10 One Jereissati's enemies are all Jereissati's enemies, one
> Jereissati's friends are friends of the clan!
>
maj.
> In dem Wissen, daß dieser Codex unsere Ehre birgt, lassen wir
> niemals zu, daß er in die Hände unserer Feinde fällt! Es leben die
> Jereissati, Es lebe die Föderation!
>
> ghob ngoqvammo' taH batlhmaj 'e' wISovmo', jaghpu'maj luSuqlaH 'e'
> not wIchaw'qang! Qapla' lughajjaj Jereissati 'ej ghajjaj DIvI'!
>
> Knowing that this Code bears our honour, we shall never allow it
> to fall into our enemies' hands! Long live the Jereissati, Long live
> the Federation!
>
Again, in {...'e' not wIchaw'qang}, {'e'} is the object and not simply a
connecting word. So the word order should be:
{not 'e' wIchaw'qang} "We are never willing to permit that"
or more simply
{'e' wIchaw'Qo'} "We won't permit that"
The original message was rather long and based on a precise moral code
(which made it complicated and wordy). However, overall you did a good job
of translating it, and managed to rephrase ideas while keeping the basic
meaning intact. I would suggest looking over it again, so that you
understand where you had difficulty. If you have any questions about my
comments, feel free to ask and I can give a more detailed explanation if you
want.
Going along with SarrIS' recent comments, I encourage beginners and skilled
Klingon speakers alike to say things in Klingon, in their own words. Writing
your own original sentences, stories, or descriptions in Klingon is more
satisfying (at least for me). And you can submit your own original tlhIngan
Hol stories to {jatmey}, also. :-)
- taD
-----------------
AIM: Tad Stauffer
ICQ #: 7622618
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