tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jan 05 06:46:07 2001

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re: Grammar Highlight Each Day (-vaD)

>From: [email protected] 
>Subject: Grammar Highlight Each Day (-vaD) 
>Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 01:29:10 EST 

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Disclaimer:  I often use explanations other than just those in the grammar 
>section of TKD.  TKD and MO are the true authority.  This highlight is meant 
>to be instructive, but it is definitely not an exhaustive teaching tool.

If these descriptions you use that are different from those 
in TKD add clarity, I'm in favor of it. Meanwhile, 
sometimes I see your tendency to want to model the grammar 
in different terms as downright misleading, encouraging 
people to draw incorrect conclusions. That compells me to 
respond, just to make sure people don't misunderstand.

>The noun suffix, type 5 {-vaD} covers both the dative and allative concepts 
>of English.  

I can see these terms as useful for a discussion among 
linguists of Klingon grammar. I'm somewhat puzzled that you 
seem to think these terms will somehow make beginners less 
intimidated or more understanding of the grammar. I 
actually think that one of the things Okrand did well in 
TKD was to explain the grammar WITHOUT using terms like 
this.

...
>yIn pIvvaD 'ut Soj QaQ = Good food is essential to a healthy life.
>(yIn = life; pIv = be healthy; 'ut = be essential; QaQ = be good)
>When there are more than just the base noun, the noun suffix, type 5 {-vaD} 
>goes on the last element of the phrase.  Although {pIv} "be healthy" is an 
>adjective, it is the final element of the phrase containing a noun with 
>{-vaD} ostensibly affixed to it.

I've already expressed once my dismay at your choice to 
take the grammatical example Okrand gives us that, by his 
description, as a single exception to the normal placement 
of noun suffixes, only Type 5 suffixes (and for ALL Type 5 
suffixes), only in the exceptional case of a trailing verb 
acting adjectivally, the Type 5 noun suffix moves to the 
verb. He didn't say anything about noun clauses or noun 
phrases. He didn't make any generic statement that the Type 
5 suffix goes to the end of the phrase. That's your 
wording, not his.

Meanwhile, it is not enlightening. It is misleading, 
because as it actually works, a single adjective following 
a single noun IS THE ONLY CASE in which the Type 5 noun 
suffix moves from the noun to another word. So, since that 
is a specific exception to the general rule that noun 
suffixes stick to the nouns to which they apply, and since 
there are other forms of noun phrases and clauses, it is a 
disservice to mislead people to think that the suffix goes 
to the end of the phrase.

Consider the following simple example. Translate: "The cook 
gave food to Krankor and me." Following your interpretation 
of the grammar, that should be:

**Qanqor jIH jevaD Soj nob vutwI'.**

This is obviously a mistake. Still, clearly the noun phrase 
here is {Qanqor jIH je}, so following your rule, {-vaD} 
should go at the end of the phrase. You could then make an 
exeption to your rule and say that conjunctions don't 
count. I could then come up with a relative clause and 
you'd have to make another exception to your rule. I could 
then probably come up with other forms of noun phrases and 
clauses and you'd have to make up an exception for each one 
of them.

Note for beginners that this should be:

QanqorvaD jIHvaD je Soj nob vutwI'.

One might argue that since Klingons have no word for 
"polite", it might also be:

jIHvaD QanqorvaD je Soj nob vutwI'.

My point is that you have taken an exception and stated it 
as if it were a generic rule. It's not the case that 
generally speaking, {-vaD} goes to the end of noun phrases 
or clauses. It is the case that an adjective following a 
noun is an exceptional case where the Type 5 noun suffix 
gets moved from the noun to the adjective.

Is there some reason that you don't like that description 
of the grammar? It is direct and it works every time and it 
doesn't lead anybody to make the mistake of moving the 
suffix when it shouldn't be moved.

>peHruS QInnor puqloD, valtev tuq

SarrIS

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