tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Feb 13 07:47:39 2001
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Re: K'Zhen Zu-Merz
- From: Marc Ruehlaender <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: K'Zhen Zu-Merz
- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:47:14 CST
jIja':
> >to me, "Gennie" has a short "n" and a short "i", whereas
> >{jennIy} has both long;...
>
ja' ghunchu'wI':
> jumqu'. I would have said that "Gennie" has both long, and I pronounce
> {jennIy} almost exactly the same way I pronounce "Gennie".
>
I wasn't aware English even had long consonants.
{jennIy} sounds to me more like "jen knee" (without a pause
between the two "n")
I was under the impression that the section on double consonants
in KGT, p 138f, was written precisely because native speakers of
English (actors/actresses) tend to pronounce double consonants
quite similar to single ones (as opposed to, say, native speakers
of Finnish or Hungarian, where the distinction between "n" and
"nn" is just as important as that between {q} and {Q} in Klingon).
> >as the last syllable would usually
> >get the stress, I might say {je'nI}, although it's possible
> >a Klingon will hear "Gennie" with a "normal" stress on the
> >{nI}
>
> The "ie" at the end of "Gennie" is certainly not a short "i" as in "fix",
I'll bow to the native speakers ear here.
> which is how I'd pronounce the last sound in {je'nI}. The apostrophe
> you've tossed in represents a sound that isn't present at all in "Gennie",
> and I have no idea why you put it there where {n} should obviously be.
>
I put it there, to move the stress from {nI} (or {nIy}) to {je'}
because in {jenI}/{jenIy}/jennI}/{jennIy} the {je}/{jen} is not
the stressed syllable, whereas in {je'nI}/{je'nIy} the {je'} *is*
the stressed syllable.
> >{SammarSe'} puts the stress on a syllable that isn't even
> >there in "Summers",
>
> I tend to stress all three syllables of {SammarSe'} about equally.
>
then you're not following the rules as set out in TKD
1.3. "In a noun, the stressed syllable is usually the
syllable right before the first noun suffix, or the
final syllable if there is no suffix. If, however, a
syllable ending in {'} is present, it is usually
stressed instead. [..] The rules given above do not
account for [..] variability, but if they are followed,
stress will wind up on acceptable syllables."
> >and I don't hear an {a} in "-mer";
> >(I hear a Schwa, which Okrand seems to transcribe with {I}
> >(right?), which he also uses to fill consonant clusters with
> >vowels, so one might argue for {Sa'mIrIS})
>
> I think it's basically a matter of auditory preference whether one fills
> out the consonant clusters with extra vowels preceding or following them
> when transliterating. SarrIS obviously hears an extra vowel at the end as
> being less obtrusive than one at the beginning.
>
that's ok, but he definitely shouldn't have put an {'}
on it. (because it warps the stress pattern)
> And again, why did you replace the {m} sound with {'}?
>
again, to move the stress to the syllable that is stressed
in the English word (and again I'm starting from a "short"
"m" in English, so it's not a replacement; {SamIr} or {Samer}
have the stress on {mIr}/{mer}, {SamIrIS}/{SamIrSI} (or any
combination of vowels you find suitable substitutes for the
{I}s) have the stress on the {rIS}/{SI}/etc)
> (By the way, in the last syllable of "Summers" I hear not a schwa, but an
> extended "r" sound that I think is labeled a "rhotive".)
>
all right, that basically depends on whether it's a "British"
Summers, or an "American" one (greatly simplifying the distribution
of pronounciations)
> -- ghunchu'wI' 'utlh
>
>
Marc Ruehlaender
aka HomDoq
[email protected]