tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 17 11:35:24 2000

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RE: KLBC: Siān: jIlIH'egh.


Welcome to the list, naQSej! I'm taD, the Beginner's Grammarian. As you
obviously already know, you can add the "KLBC" to your message's subject
line whenever you want me to check your work or have a question for me about
Klingon. As you did here, remember to include an English translation so that
I can make sure you're saying what you want to say.

naQSej said:
> *naQSej* 'oH pongwIj'e'.  *qumrI'ngan* (Welsh) jIH, Wrexham vIDab.  vagh
> ben "mu'ghom tlhIngan" vIje', 'ach DISvam ropyaHDaq jIropDI', vIghoj 'e'
> vItagh.
> 
maj. This is good. You said {mu'ghom tlhIngan}, which means "the
dictionary's klingon". What you want is "The Klingon Dictionary", which is
rendered as {tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom} - literally, "Klingon Language
Dictionary".

> vumwIj vIDel 'e' Qatlh - thlIngan Hol mu'mey tu'lu'be'!  
> 
Here, it looks like you're trying to say "It's difficult to describe my
job". This is a good attempt. However, in the Klingon Dictionary, {vum} is
listed only as a verb ("work, toil"), so you can't use it like a noun.
Instead, you could use another word to indicate your job. If you want to
describe what you actually do, you could use {Qu'} ("task, duty, chore"). If
you want to describe where you work, you could try {yaH} ("duty station").

Also, using {'e' Qatlh} doesn't quite work for "it is difficult". Since
{Qatlh} means "be difficult", the subject of this verb (which would come
after the verb) is what is difficult.
Often people have used the construction {Qatlh XmeH Qu'} to express "It is
difficult to X". When you break it down, this actually is:

The verb {Qatlh} ("be difficult")
and the noun phrase {XmeH Qu'} ("The in-order-to-X task" or "The task of
Xing")

Therefore, you can say:
{Qatlh yaHwIj vIDelmeH Qu'} "The in-order-to-describe-my-duty-station task
is difficult", or more simply, "The task of me describing my duty station is
difficult".


> I devised a (probably) non-canon expression:  ruv = justice, therefore
> ruvwI' = Justice of the Peace (lay judge in England and Wales, dealing
> with 97% of criminal cases); loH = administrate, therefore loHwI' =
> administrator, clerk.  Therefore, ruvwI' loHwI' cha'DIch = Deputy
> Justices' Clerk.  I say "probably" non-canon, since it makes use of
> Klingon words and affixes, however, languages tend to fix ways of using
> their word forming elements, so that we do not have a free choice.  (We
> can say bishopric in English, but not Mayorric, and it is not inevitable
> that the Esperanto for hospital should be "container of not-healthy
> people", but it is, nonetheless.)  
> 
{ruv} is only listed as a noun, so we can't use verb suffixes (such as
{-wI'}) on it. Because {loH} is a verb, you *can* use verb suffixes on it.
So {loHwI'} is fine for "administrator".
To describe a Justice of the Peace, you could say something such as {ruv
yaS} "justice officer". If a Deputy Justice is "the second Justice of the
Peace", then {ruv yaS cha'DIch} ("Second justice officer") works here.
{ruv yaS cha'DIch loHwI'} would mean "Second justice officer's
administrator". You could also say {ruv yaS cha'DIch boQ} ("Second justice
officer's aide").

Generally, it's ok to make noun-noun constructions to describe something, as
you did here. However, as you pointed out, it might not be understood
exactly.

> toH, ruvwI' loHwI' cha'DIch jIH.  Dochvam nuq oH?  pagh Sov!  chutwI' maH.
> ruvwI'pu' DIqeS 'ej wuqmey DImIw.
> 
When you wrote {pagh Sov}, this means "He/she/it knows nothing". If you
intended to say "No one knows (it)", then you'd have to say {Sov pagh}. This
is because Klingon word order is object - verb - subject.
Also, you've used some nouns as verbs and verbs as nouns. You shouldn't do
this, because we can't assume that verbs can be used like a noun, and vice
versa.
{chut} is only a noun. Instead of *{chutwI' maH}, you could say {chut loHwI'
maH} ("We are law administrators").

Also, {wuq} is only a verb, and {mIw} is only a noun. So when you wrote
{wuqmey DImIw}, I'm guessing that you were trying to say "We process
decisions". You could say {yojmey DIpoj} "We analyze judgements" or {yojmey
DIchov} "We evaluate judgements". Since {yoj} ("judgement") is a noun, and
{poj} ("analyze") and {chov} ("evaluate") are verbs, these work.


> jIghel:  "with" "by means of" joq qatlh ja'?
> 
It sounds like you're trying to say "How do I tell someone "with/by means
of"?" If so, you want the question word {chay'} ("how?"), instead of {qatlh}
("why?"). These question words go at the beginning of a sentence.
Also, in my opinion, the verb {jatlh} ("say") might be a better choice here:
{chay' "with" "by means of" joq vIjatlh?} "How do I say 'with/by means of'?"

The way you said "with" below is good. If I want to say "Hunt with your
knife!", I could say:
{bIwammeH tajlIj yIlo'!} "In order that you hunt, use your knife!"



> ra'mey ghojDI' "Hit me with your rhythm stick" "Ian Dury" vImughpu' 'e'
> jInID.  "with" vIlo'laHbe'pu'.  toH .
> 
You don't need the verb suffix {-pu'} here. {-pu'} doesn't indicate past
test, it really means that an action was complete, is complete, or will be
completed at the time the sentence refers to.

Again, if a word is only listed in the dictionary as a verb, we shouldn't
use it as a noun, and vice versa. Here, you've used the verb {ra'}
("command") as a noun.
You can use it like a verb as follows:
{jIra'meH jIghojDI'...} "When I learned, for the purpose of commanding, ..."

You said: {vImughpu' 'e' jInID}.
You've used the pronoun {'e'}, indicating "that (previous sentence)". {'e'}
is the object of the verb {nID} ("try"). What do you try? You try to
translate. So you need to use the prefix {vI-} on the verb, rather than the
prefix {jI-}.
For example:
{'e' vInID} "I try that"
{jIvum 'e' vInID} "I try to work"
{bIDoy' 'e' vIHon} "I doubt that you're tired"
{vImugh 'e' vInID} "I tried to translate it"


And now onto the translation:

> bIrqu' rura'pente'vo' 
> 
When you use a verb as an adjective, it goes after the noun that it
describes. For example, {Duj tIn} means "the big ship".  {Duj} is "ship",
{tIn} is "be big".
So if you're saying "cold Rura Penthe", {bIrqu'} goes after {rura' pente'}.

Also, in cases like this, where you have an adjective describing a noun, if
there is a type-5 noun suffix, it actually goes after the entire noun-verb
phrase, rather than just after the noun:
{rura' pente' bIrqu'} "very cold Rura Penthe"
{rura' pente'vo'} "from Rura Penthe"
However, {rura' pente' bIrqu'vo'} "from very cold Rura Penthe"
This rule is explained on page 50 of TKD.


> vulqanDaq: meQtaH vaHbo'
> qarDas'vo' 
> 
This first line sounds rather poetic, and it isn't a direct translation of
the English.  maj.


> Qo'nosDaq ngo'
> 
Again, according to page 50 of TKD, type-5 noun suffixes (such as {-Daq}) go
after verbs when being used as adjectives.
{Qo'noS ngo'Daq} "To old Kronos".
You could also use the word {tIQ} ("be ancient") to describe Kronos.

> Hoch be', Hoch loD, Hoch puqloD
> choqIpmeH QoQnaq yIlu'
> 
A couple typos here. {naQ} ("stick, cane") is spelled with a {Q}. Also, I
think you meant to use {yIlo'} ("Use it!"), instead of {yIlu'} ("Interrogate
him!").
This is a good way to express "with" in this context.


> HIqIp, HIqIp
> qaparbaq, ay Du lov yu'
> 
If you use foreign terms in Klingon, it probably is best to leave them in
their original spelling. That way, people won't get confused. You can mark
the foreign term with *'s or <>'s to indicate that it's not Klingon.


> HIqIp, HIqIp, HIqIp
> choqIpmeH QoQnaq yIlu'
> HIqIp nom 'ej HIqIp QIt
> 
Adverbials, such as {nom} ("quickly") and {QIt} ("slowly") go at the
beginning of a sentence. So this should be {nom HIqIp 'ej QIt HIqIp}.


> HIqIp, HIqIp, HIqIp
> 
> chIm Daqmey sermanyuqvo'
> 
Again, verbs being used as adjectives go after the noun they're describing.
You would say {Daqmey chIm} ("Uninhabited places").
Also, the word order of the nouns isn't quite correct here.  To say "The
uninhabited places of Serman's Planet", you would use {SermanyuQ Daqmey
chIm}. This is the same as "Sherman's Planet's uninhabited places".

> qachHa'mey veng wa'DIchvo'
> 
{qachHa'mey} doesn't work, because {-Ha'} ("undo") is a verb suffix, but
{qach} ("building") is a noun. You could use another word to describe
vineyards - maybe {Du'} ("farm").
So this would be:
{veng wa'DIch Du'meyvo'}  "From the farms of the First City"

> tera'ngan
> orgenya'ngan
> porgchaj vIHmoH 
> tIng je chan
> 
The word {je} ("and", used for joining nouns) comes after all of the nouns.
For example, {ghIch nuj je} ("nose and mouth").
Also, you might want to try a different way to express "to and fro". There
is an idiom {tIngvo' 'evDaq chanDaq} (which means "all over the place"),
which you may have been thinking of. However, this has been used as "I've
traveled all over the place", so this probably wouldn't be used to describe
a relatively small distance.


> choqIpmeH QoQnaq yIlu'
> HIqIp, HIqIp
> Dat Is guD, 'oH Nun, Nun, Nun
> HIqIp, HIqIp, HIqIp
> choqIpmeH QoQnaq yIlu'
> 
maj. The same comments above regarding the spelling of foreign phrases, and
the spelling of {QoQnaQ yIlo'} apply here too.


> Da qubHa'wI' vIneHqu'
> 
This is a good way of recasting "'snice to be a lunatic", using the verb
{neH} ("want") to make the sentence more verb-oriented.
There are several small problems that need to be fixed here, though. Don't
forget to use an uppercase {Q} for {QubHa'wI'}. You may also want to
consider using the verbs {maw'} ("be crazy"), {taQ} ("be weird"), or {jum}
("be odd") instead of {QubHa'}.
The first part, {Da QubHa'wI'}, means "A misthinker acts like
him/her/it/them". I think you might have wanted to say "I act like a
misthinker". Remember that the order is object-verb-subject, so this would
be {QubHa'wI' vIDa jIH}. You can omit the {jIH} here, and say {QubHa'wI'
vIDa vIneHqu'} ("I want (that) I act like a misthinker").


> HIqIp, HIqIp, HIqIp
> 
> From the deserts of Sudan
> and the gardens of Japan
> from Milan
> to Yucatan
> Every woman, every man
> Hit me with your rhythm stick
> hit me, hit me
> je t'adore, ich liebe dich
> hit me hit me hit me 
> hit me with your rhythm stick,
> hit me slowly, hit me quick, 
> hit me, hit me, hit me
> 
>  From the wilds of Borneo
> and the vineyards of Bordeaux
> Eskimo 
> Arapaho 
> move their bodies 
> to and fro 
> hit me with your rhythm stick
> hit me, hit me
> das ist gut, c'est fantastique
> hit me hit me hit me 
> hit me with your rhythm stick,
> 'snice to be a lunatic
> hit me, hit me, hit me
> 
>  'ay' cha'DIch jIrInDI, jIpIlpu' 'e' jImev.  nuq bIQub?
> 
Double-check the verb prefixes here. {jI-} is only used when you are doing
something with no object. {jIpIl} ("I am inspired") is fine. However, you
are finishing *the second section*, which is the object. So you need the
prefix which indicates "I do something to he/she/it". It is {vI-}. Also look
at the prefixes on {mev} and {Qub} here, and check the prefix chart on page
33 of TKD.

I don't know this song, so I can't judge how well the translation captures
the essence of the original.
Even though everyone wants to translate their favorite song/poem/epic work
of literate into Klingon, it's generally a good idea to start simple.  Songs
usually contain incomplete sentences, non-literal phrases, and other
difficult to translate things. Therefore, as you did with your other recent
email, it's better to describe something rather than translate a song or a
book. Good questions to think about describing in Klingon could be: What did
you do today, what do you enjoy doing, or even what would you do in some
hypothetical situation.


> nI', jIpay.
> 
nI'bej, 'ach qay'be'.
It just takes me longer to reply. :-)

- taD

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