tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 23 08:54:17 1999
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Re: Annoyance
On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:35:57 -0500 David Trimboli
<[email protected]> wrote:
> jatlh ghunchu'wI':
> > This list cannot be "impartial" at all! We're talking about a language
> > here, remember? Language by definition has rules that govern its proper
> > use, and it has conventions that its users follow in order to communicate
> > effectively. There is a definite standard by which discussion and use of
> > the Klingon language must be judged.
> >
> > It seems to me that part of the problem is that people sometimes join the
> > mailing list without realizing that there are folks here who already can
> > (and actually do) use Klingon conversationally. We "oldtimers" know what
> > we're talking about. We *know* that some tasks attempted by occasional
> > newcomers are counterproductive. We *know* that there are certain levels
> > of understanding that must come before other levels of understanding. If
> > that comes across as condescending or arrogant, I'm sorry, but I know of
> > no other way to do things.
> >
> > -- ghunchu'wI' 'utlh
>
>
> I hope that no one minds this departure from list policy for a moment, but
> I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a while. See also my
> summary at the bottom. (And no, this message is not directed solely at
> ghunchu'wI'.)
vuDlIj vIvuv. jatlhchu' tIqlIj.
> Yes, we "old-timers" (and I'm not as old-time on this list as some of you,
> but I've done my time as a Beginners' Grammarian) know what it's all about.
bIpo'ba' 'ej qaStaHvIS DISmey yap, tlhIngan Hol Dalo' 'ej DaHaD.
> We know what's counterproductive and what's not possible. We know the style
> of the language and things like how difficult it is to translate poetry.
> But is it really our place to boss newcomers around?
pIn vIDa vIneHbe'. bong pIn vIDaba'pu'. Do'Ha' jIDoghpu'.
> "We're talking about a language here, remember? . . . There is a definite
> standard by which discussion and use of the Klingon language must be
> judged."
>
> This is quite true: Klingon is a real language, with real rules and a real
> vocabulary. But there is another aspect to Klingon which other languages do
> not have. I think this aspect is more important than any other. The whole
> purpose of the Klingon language is to enjoy it. The purpose of English is
> to speak English, the purpose to Chinese is to speak Chinese, and the
> purpose of Basque is to speak Basque. Only Klingon has the purpose of
> having fun. That's why the language was invented. More importantly, that's
> why so many people show up on this list wanting to speak it. Other
> languages developed because they were needed (for a variety of reasons);
> Klingon developed because it was fun.
maQochbe'. I know that the passion of my own response to
beginners who leap into poetry relates to my OWN fun. The same
people who insist on beginning with poems quite often have no
respect for the difficult position it puts others in when they
demand critique.
In the first place, I suggest that quite often (not always, but
quite often) when beginners translate poems, they crank out a
quantity of text that far outstrips the quantity they generate
when they are not translating poems. This alone should be a clue
that something terribly wrong is happening. Suddenly, a person
who rarely writes three lines of Klingon text in a sitting is
filling three or four screens full of stuff they have
"translated".
These same people send these tomes to the list and demand that
people tell them what they think of their accomplishment. If
they don't get the response they think they deserve, they resend
the same poem with increasingly insulting prefaces, taunting
people to praise their work and/or correct their mistakes.
The mistakes tend to be many. Working on a three page poem does
not give them any more skill than writing three good lines of
normal text. It's just more work for those trying to correct
them.
And then we often (not in this case, but often) have to deal
with indignant poets whining about their poetic license.
Every translator doesn't do this, but many do and those who have
been subjected to this more than a couple times tend to be a bit
thin-skinned about it. Maybe it is fun for the translators, but
it is not fun for us.
Krankor won't comment on poems. I generally don't, until the
second or third time the same poem is sent to the list with the
author griping about how nobody has answered his request for
feedback on the poem. They seem clueless about why perhaps
others aren't leaping at the opportunity to work on their poem
FOR THEM.
If you ask me for feedback, it is a good idea to be ready to
receive it. If you merely present your poem and let people
respond if they want to, then you are spared my feedback because
I don't bother with poems until they get resent with messages
suggesting that just because some of us have skill working with
the language, we owe people the service of correcting their
long, tiresome, heavily flawed poems.
Like they think I enjoy doing this.
Some poems ARE a joy to work with. You personally have written
some of my favorite poetic works. Meanwhile, you don't post them
here and demand that other people translate them and clean them
up for you. I consider any chance to read things you've written
to be an opportunity, not a chore. I IS fun for me.
I'm not trying to slap down beginners. I'm trying to discourage
them from abusing the list with demands that people spend a lot
of time on big poetic works that are poorly translated by those
who have not put in the effort yet to get a solid base of skill
with the language such that the poems will be anything but a
burden to anyone who deals with them. It is honestly obnoxious
to post large translations full of basic grammatical errors and
repeatedly demand attention from others to do your bidding with
these works.
> Yes, it's true: people learning Spanish generally don't start out trying to
> translate poetry. Because they don't particularly want to. But that's
> something they want to do in Klingon! It's one of the reasons WHY they want
> to speak the language at all!
Great. Post one stanza from a poem. Ask for corrections. Learn
from those corrections. Translate the next stanza and post it to
the list. Wait for a normal pace of response. Repeat until the
poem is done. Don't hack your way through more text than you'd
ever write of your own words in one sitting and then throw it at
the list and then impatiently demand that people deal with it.
That is incredibly insensitive and self-centered.
> What other way is there to do things? Why, step back and let newcomers make
> mistakes! Let them try to translate poetry! Let them try to make up new
> words that don't make any sense! That's what we all tried to do when
> starting to learn this language. If a newcomer wants help with the
> language, he'll talk to the Beginners' Grammarian. When some list "'utlh"
> steps in and starts ordering what's allowed and what's not, when newcomers
> hear that they're not allowed to do this or talk about that, they won't want
> to subscribe anymore!
The newcomers themselves have responded well to this.
> "But SuStel," I hear you object, "if we do that, they'll start promoting
> wrong things to other newcomers!" Hey, we'll always be in the wings to make
> sure things don't go TOO far. If a distinct dialect starts appearing on the
> list, if people start trying to make widespread changes to the language,
> we'll politely and pleasantly step in. PLEASANTLY. In this capacity, being
> pleasant is just as important as being right.
I like this goal. I will try to live up to it. I know I've
failed it in the past, though I know that I've also upheld it in
the past. It just depends on which episodes you tend to want to
focus on. You have a good point here and I do respect it.
> Here's what I suggest: the "'utlhpu'" should generally restrain themselves
> from discussing at length the grammar of any "non-'utlh" post, unless such
> discussion is invited.
In this case, it was not only invited, it was DEMANDED.
Repeatedly. "I posted this before and nobody commented on it, so
I'm posting it again. Will somebody please go over this and
offer me any corrections they see necessary." So I do and then
face insults from you. Charming.
> Talk to anyone you like in Klingon, but don't talk
> about newcomers' grammar. Even if it's in Klingon.
Even if they ask for it repeatedly?
> That's the job of the
> Beginners' Grammarian. If you feel an urge to tell someone "You can't do
> that," STOP YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. Whether you're right or wrong, newbies
> don't want to feel unwelcome, and scolding them for not doing things your
> way is a surefire way to make them feel unwelcome.
So, how am I to take repeated scoldings from you? It would seem
that if being pleasant and polite is so important to you, you
might try exercising a bit more of it, yourself.
> "It seems to me that part of the problem is that people sometimes join the
> mailing list without realizing that there are folks here who already can
> (and actually do) use Klingon conversationally."
>
> This is OUR problem, not the newcomer's problem. This list should support
> all levels of Klingon language use, not just our own vision of it. I recall
> a point when I was starting to get the hang of Klingon, I was getting tired
> of the bickering. Fortunately for me, I stuck with it (the circumstances of
> my life at the time made it easier; I would not have stuck with it if I'd
> begun now).
Circumstances off the list definitely affect all of us and our
tolerance, patience, politeness, pleasantness, etc.
> I don't expect to see this go away, but I do remember thinking
> it'd be much easier if the environment were more friendly for someone at my
> stage. As far as I see it, if the "'utlhpu'" want people to keep signing up
> and sticking around, they've got to become friendly. As much as some people
> hate to admit it, none of us are Klingons. Being mean, whatever the reason,
> is detrimental to our cause.
I agree with your message, though I will point out that your
manner is often as mean as anyone else on this list. I've
certainly been at the pointy end of your meanness.
> What's the Klingon for "public relations"? Be nice. Being polite is not
> enough. It's easy to be polite while you're being mean, and that's how it
> will look, no matter how hard you try, if you're not being nice at the same
> time. Be pleasant. And when you see a mistake, for the most part (unless
> you've been asked to correct something, or unless it's happened a dozen
> times), ignore it. Don't tell them you don't understand what they meant
> when you know perfectly well what they were trying to say.
I have recently made a point of letting people understand that I
understand what they intended, though they misused something or
otherwise messed up their statement. I want to help them know
how to say what they've said better. Usually they seem to
appreciate this.
> That's not
> pleasant, that's condescending. (e.g. Newbie: "jIH yajbe'." 'utlhqoq: "He
> doesn't understand the monitor? What does that mean?" Don't do this. It's
> pretty enraging from the point of view of the newbie who tried hard to come
> up with it. Be helpful, rather than simply critical.) If you've hurt
> someone's feelings, you're in the wrong.
Again, that is good advice and you'd do well to follow it better.
> Well, I apologize for not following the list's guidelines here. I'm just
> worried about the same thing that a couple of taghwI'pu' have complained
> about: the difficult learning envronment which has been rearing its head
> lately on this list. Please, everyone, be more concerned with your fellows'
> needs than with your own. Thank you.
What you've said here is as important as anything that strictly
follows the guidelines. The preachiness of it dillutes the
potential positive effect, but I'd be rather stupid to not admit
to all the times *I*'ve been unintentionally preachy. I'm sure
I'm doing it right now, though if I am, I'd love to gain the
insight as to how to avoid it and be more helpful to others and
to myself.
We are all doing the best we can here.
A nudge now and then helps. Thanks for your good intent and for
speaking out on an issue that definitely needs attention from
time to time on this list.
> SuStel
> Stardate 99891.3
>
> P.S.: The summary: Shut up and let people have fun for a change! :)
Note that one rarely has fun after being told to shut up.
charghwI'