tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 05 06:49:42 1999

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Re: And then...? And then...? (And then along came Jones...) - For MO

>Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:13:09 -0500
>From: TPO <[email protected]>
>
>The follow is from Marc Okrand from the Klingon newsgroup

Wowsers.  Not for the one word it ostensibly told us, nor even the useful
idiom, but a few other words which were dropped so casually we might not
have noticed them.

>Mark E. Shoulson wrote in message
><[email protected]>...
>
>
>>We now have {ghIq}, meaning "then" in the sense of
>>"subsequently..."  That is, after the last thing happened,
>>this happened; emphasizing the sequential aspect of the
>>narrative.  But having that, what about another kind of
>>"then"?  Something like a temporal analogue to {pa'}:
>>"then" in the sense of "at that time."  We have something
>>like this with {-DI'}, but that requires a verb or clause
>>which isn't always necessarily available or convenient.
>>Maybe there's something idiomatic with {-DI'}?  Or an
>>adverb?

I have to admit that after seeing the objections to my question I wasn't so
sure it was a good idea anymore.  That's why I didn't work too hard to
counter the questions: let Marc see the discussion and decide for himself
if it really is necessary.  Seeing his examples, though, does make me feel
that such a word really is useful and appropriate.

>The adverbial is (ngugh}.  It is used mainly to emphasize
>that a particular event occurred at the same time as
>something else, though {ngugh} doesn't indicate what that
>time is.  Something else in the discussion makes that
>clear.  {ngugh} does not mean "at some (vague) time in the
>past" or "at some (unknown) time in the future."

Basically like {pa'} for time.

>(1) vagh SanID ben buDbe' wamwI'pu'.  ngugh Ho'Du'chaj lo'
>chaH, 'ach DaH tajmey lo'.
>
>"5,000 years ago, hunters were not lazy.  Then (at that
>time) they used their teeth, but now they use knives."
>
>(2) DungluQ tIHIv.  ngugh Qongbe' chaH.
>
>"Attack them at noon!  They won't be sleeping then."  (or:
>"Attack them at noon.  They're not sleeping then.")

These examples would be pretty messy with circumlocutions to say it other
ways.

>In addition to {ngugh}, there is an idiomatic expression
>involving the suffix {-DI'} "when, as soon as" used to mean
>"by that time, by the time that [something] occurred (or
>will occur)."  The event that has occurred (or will occur)
>is typically expressed in the immediately preceding
>sentence or clause, though it could have been uttered
>earlier.

That's nice; "by that time" is a good 'un.

>Some speakers, however, are rather creative and use nouns
>other than {'etlh}.  For example: {pumDI' DaS} "when the
>boot falls," {pumDI' 'obmaQ} "when the ax falls," {pumDI'
>nagh} "when the stone falls," {pumDI' rutlh} "when the
>wheel falls."  There seems to be no restriction on what
>noun may be used here, as long as it is something that
>could possibly fall.  (Thus {pumDI' QoQ} "when the music
>falls" would not be used.)

All nice... hey, but... :)  We now have a word for "wheel"!  I don't think
we ever did before (closest was {gho} used as "hoop")

>The idiom might be used when talking about a feast that had
>taken place a few nights ago. If a guest arrived late --
>after the eating had already begun -- one might say
>something like:
>
>
>    tagha' pawpu' meb 'ach pumDI' Heghpu' qagh.
>
>or:
>
>    tagha' pawpu' meb 'ach pumDI' 'etlh Heghpu' qagh.
>
>
>"The guest finally arrived, but by then the gagh had died."
>
>({tagha'} "finally, at last," {pawpu'} "he/she has
>arrived," {meb} "guest," {'ach} "but," {pumDI' ('etlh)} "by
>then," {Heghpu'} "it has died," {qagh} "gagh")

*ping* and an adverb for "finally"!  Though so far only for finally in the
sense of "it happened after a long expectation, after being considered
late" and not "at the end of the story, when all is/was said and done."

~mark

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