Re: -bogh and -ghach

["William H. Martin" <whm2m@server1.mail.virginia.edu>]

pagh actually answered this quite well and I subsequently regret 
having jumped in where he is quite capable. Meanwhile, I did 
start this reply and feel compelled to respond here:

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:38 -0800 (PST) B52mst3k@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/23/99 1:43:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> whm2m@server1.mail.virginia.edu writes:
... 
>  Does this help? >>
> 
> 
> Somewhat.  What would happen if there are both an object and a subject on a
> -bogh verb?  How should that be translated into a form I could easily
> understand.?

Okrand gave us such an example without disambiguating it in his 
"A day without secrets is like a night without stars." He wrote 
this before he created the word {Hutlh}, so it came out (if I 
remember correctly):

Hovmey ghajbe'bogh ram rur peghmey ghajbe'bogh jaj.

This could also quite legitimately be translated, "The secrets 
not had by a day resemble stars not had by a night." It would be 
twisted even more perversely by mixing and matching head nouns 
between the two relative clauses.

Meanwhile, as pagh and I both suggested, you can indicate which 
noun is the head noun by adding {-'e'} to it. Captain Krankor 
came up with this and Okrand accepted and endorsed it and has 
used it in canon (though not consistently).

So, since {HoD qIpbogh puq vIlegh} can either mean "I see the 
child who hit the captain," or "I see the captain who was hit by 
the child," I can be more specific by saying:

HoD'e' qIpbogh puq vIlegh. "I see the captain who was hit by the 
child."

or

HoD qIpbogh puq'e' vIlegh. "I see the child who hit the captain."

> And -ghach...Should I take it as "the action of doing something"?  Or
> something else?

I REALLY suggest you leave {-ghach} alone. If you really work at 
it and start out with a strong sense of the language, plus a 
good dose of luck, you might come up with perhaps one out of ten 
attempts at a good use of {-ghach} that won't make most of the 
rest of us roll our eyes and groan.

It was intended to be a very specialized, exceptional tool for 
getting out of a grammatical bind. Okrand needed it exactly 
once. He needed the word "discommendation". He made up another 
regrettable example for TKD and that's it. He has had a lot of 
years to show us usage, but so far he has resisted temptation 
BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE WIDELY USED.

Meanwhile, because English is very noun-centric when compared to 
Klingon, beginners are drawn to {-ghach} like a magnet. Through 
its use, they see means to hammer Klingon into a language that 
is familiar to them.

That's not the right idea.

> T'Lod

charghwI' 'utlh