tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 17 11:35:38 1998
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RE: KLBC: A few paragraphs
- From: "Andeen, Eric" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: KLBC: A few paragraphs
- Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:32:47 -0700
lab Michael:
>
> Hello!
>
> I have written a few paragraphs, and I was wondering if
> I could get some help on them. pagh, I took your
> suggestion of putting our own thoughts to words, and came
> up with a few things...
>
> Here's the original English that I started with:
>
> I have wanted to learn Klingon for a while. A friend
> of mine speaks Greek, Italian and English. I feel that I
> am missing out. I feel that your intellectual capacity is
> tied to how you can communicate your knowledge. So any
> knew way of expressing your knowledge should be exploited.
>
> I would learn a language such as French or Spanish, but
> that would be too practical! Also, they are very much like
> English structurally, which is not very interesting. So, I
> decided to pursue Klingon, which will definitely make me
> unique, here in Alabama!
>
> But, I am concerned that some ancient languages are dying
> out (such as Native American languages); I have heard that some
> have no nouns! These languages shouldn't be lost -- although,
> that doesn't mean that learning Klingon is bad. Hopefully
> those native speakers will save their heritage and language,
> with the help of linguists.
>
> I was trying to read and translate all the messages on the
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list -- this got impractical! I couldn't
> decide who was using correct Klingon. So, I decided to write
> my own paragraphs and get help on them. That way, I can put
> my own thoughts to paper and learn the words that I want to
> learn.
>
> ..
>
> Here's my modification of the English (to fit the Klingon,
> or to make myself more clear) and my Klingon translations:
>
> E: I want to learn Klingon well.
> K: tlhIngan Hol vIghojpu' 'e' vIneH.
<neH> makes an exception to the rules. Whenever you would use <'e'> with
<neH> as the second verb, you leave out the <'e'>.
Based on the rest of your message, I think the <-pu'> suffix is a typo, and
that you meant <-qu'>, which works well.
> E: My friend speaks Greek, Italian, and English fluently.
> K: <Greek> Hol <Italian> Hol <English> Hol je jatlhqu' jupwI'.
>
> NOTE: (I think the nouns followed by the <je> here might be ambiguous)
maj. The noun list here was fine. A bit of ambiguity is a perfectly normal
thing, except maybe in Lojban.
> E: I am not using an interesting opportunity.
> K: ghol Daj vIlo'be'.
>
> (I couldn't find an "exploit" or "take advantage of" anywhere)
<ghol> is "opponent". "opportunity" is <'eb>.
This is the perfect place for a good rephrasing. There is a Klingon proverb
- <Hoch 'ebmey tIjon> - which means "capture all opportunities". Based on
this, I would use <jon> instead of <lo'> here. I think I would also add the
suffix <-law'> here.
'eb Daj vIjonbe'law'.
> E: I believe your intelligence depends on your knowledge
> communication language.
> K: Sovghach Qumghach HolwIj wuv valghachwIj 'e' vIHar.
>
> NOTE: (might be too many <-ghach> occurrences or just plain
> wrong ones. Is that even close for "knowledge communcation
> language? <Sovghach Qumghach Hol?) I guess I could have
> just used simply <Hol>)
The English here is the form modified to make the Klingon easier to
translate, but in this case, you've made it MUCH harder. You use a lot of
nouns for things that Klingon really does better with verbs, and you've put
<-ghach> on the verbs to make them into nouns. Not really a good way to do
things.
<-ghach> shouldn't be used this way. <-ghach> on a bare verb stem is a
"marked" usage, meaning it sonds very strange, and should not normally be
used. <-ghach> can be used if there is at least one intervening verb suffix,
but even then, there are usually better ways to say things. In general, you
should try to stay away from <-ghach> - it's very difficult to use well.
Fortunately, there are easy ways around all the uses here. <Sov> is a noun
all by itself meaning "knowledge" (you'll find it in the appendix), so that
<-gahch> is unnecessary. The <Qum> is the perfect place for <-meH>. The
phrase <Sov QummeH Hol>, while rather awkward in English - something like
"language in order to communicate knowledge" - works very well in Klingon.
For the <val>, just use it as a verb. Something like <Sov QummeH HolwIjmo'
jIvallaH 'e' vIHar>.
> E: Try many different knowledge communication languages.
> K: Sovghach Qumghach Holmey law' pIm tInID.
You can't use two different verbs as adjectives on the same noun, so you
can't have both <law'> and <pIm>, but I don't think the <pIm> is necessary.
We often say things like "many different ..." in English even when it is
quite obvious that if the things in question are many they must logically be
different. There is no reason to assume Klingon is the same way.
If you want to repeat the "knowledge communication language" idea in this
sentence, then the comment about about <Sov QummeH Hol> still applies. I
don't think you need it, tough. I think <Hol> all by itself is fine.
Finally, you could drop the plural from <Hol>. Plurals are always optional
in Klingon, and in this sentence, you have not one but TWO hints (the verb
<law'> and the prefix <tI->) that let you know the noun is plural.
Hol law' tInID.
> E: I can learn French or Spanish, but Klingons and I are unable to
> communicate.
> K: <French> Hol <Spanish> Hol joq vIghojchugh, vaj maQumlaHQo'
> tlhInganpu' jIH je.
<-Qo'> means refusal, and I don't think you want that. A simple
<maQumlaHbe'> is fine.
> E: They closely resemble English, so they are not interesting.
> K: <English> Hol lururqu', vaj Dajlaw'Qo'
DIvI' Hol lururchu'be', 'ach lurur. They do resemble English, but they're
not *that* close.
Same comment as above about <-Qo'>. You should also put the <-be'> before
the <-law'>: <Dajbe'law'>.
Finally, I have a style comment. Sentences of the form <X vaj Y> can almost
always be written <X-mo' Y>. There is nothing wrong with either form, but be
aware that both exist.
> E: Therefore, I am now learning Klingon.
> K: vaj DaH tlhIngan Hol vIghojtaH.
maj.
> E: Thus, me and my Alabama neighbors are very different!
> K: vaj, jIH <Alabama>Daq jIl je maPImqu'!
To start with, nouns with type five suffixes (e.g. <-Daq>) cannot modify
other nouns; they go at the beginning of the sentence and modify the *whole*
clause. Fortunatly, it works just fine here. Second, remember your sentence
order - OVS. I also put a couple of suffixes on the <jIl> - a plural, which
makes things clearer, and a possessive to make sure that they are *your*
neighbors.
vaj <Alabama>-Daq mapImqu' jIH jIlpu'wI' je.
> E: Now, I am concerned about ancient languages that are dying (Native
> American languages).
> K: DaH, HeghtaHbogh Hol tIQ vISaHtaH (Sung <American> Holmey)
In English, we sometimes use words like "now" as a sort of glue that makes
things flow more smoothly. I don't think you really mean that *at this
particular instant* you are concerned - I think the "Now, ..." just sounded
natural. There is no reason to carry this over into the Klingon.
I would also say <HeghlI'bogh> here - the death of a language has a stopping
point, which is reached when nobody speaks it anymore. And I would say
<America> Sungpu' for "Native Americans". Look at the noun-noun construction
in TKD 3.4.
> E: Somebody told me that one language has no nouns!
> K: DIpmey ngaSQo' wa' Hol 'e' vIja'lu'ta'!
teH'a' jay'???
> E: Don't allow these languages to die, but learn Klingon also!
> K: HeghtaH Holmeyvam tIchaw'Qo' 'ach tlhIngan Hol yIghoj je!
"Don't allow these languages to be continuously dying" ??? - I would drop
the <-taH> in this sentence. You also forgot the <'e'>, and since the object
of <chaw'> is <'e'>, the prefix should be <yI->.
Hegh Holmeyvam 'e' yIchaw'Qo', 'ach ...
> E: Perhaps soon these languages will be saved by speakers and experts.
> K: chaq tugh Holmeyvam toD jatlhwI'pu' ghotpu' po'.
You could just say <po'wI'pu'> instead of <ghotpu' po'>, but otherwise this
is fine.
Obligitary vocab note: A slang word for "expert" or "authority" is <pIn>,
which literally means "boss".
> E: It is not possible for me to translate all the of the
> messages on the tlhIngan Hol mailing list.
> K: DuHbe' <tlhIngan Hol mailing list>Daq Hoch jabbI'IDmey vImughtaH.
The <DuHbe'> doesn't really work here, but there is no reason you can't say
"I cannot translate ...".
I also don't think the mailing list -Daq thing works well either. <-Daq> is
used in Klingon only for spatial concepts, and this might fit, but it seems
odd. Fortunately, there is a better way to phrase it - "all the Klingon
messages". Finally, if you are frustrated, you could add <jay'> to the
sentence.
Hoch tlhIngan Hol jabbI'IDmey vImughlaHbe' jay'.
> E: I can't decide who is using correct Klingon.
> K: tlhIngan Hol lugh jatlhlu'taH vItu'be'.
I'm not quite sure what to do with this phrase, so I will instead help you
simplify it. What are you looking for - those who are using correct Klingon,
or, to paraphrase, those who speak perfectly - <jatlhchu'wI'pu'>. Your
problem is that you cannot identify them. Hence:
jatlhchu'wI'pu' vIngu'laHbe'.
> E: Now I am writing paragraphs, and perhaps soon pagh will
> help (guide) me.
> K: DaH, mu'tlheghmey vIghItlhtaH 'ej chaq tugh jIH Dev <pagh>.
There is a word for "help" - <QaH> and a word for "assist" - <boQ>, but I
think <Dev> works pretty well here.
You do need a prefix on the verb <Dev>, and based on the subject and object,
it should be <mu->.
> E: Then, I can write my ideas on paper and learn the words
> which I need to know.
> K: vaj, navDaq qechmeywIj vIghItlh 'ej mu'mey vIghojnISbogh
> vIghojlaH.
I would add <-laH> to <vIghItlh> here, and I am not sure what you mean by
the <vaj> here, but the rest is good.
> o
>
> ..
> I hope I can get some help with this.
That's what I am here for.
> I also hope that it's not too much, I don't want to make
> a bad impression, here...
It was a bit long, but it was also pretty good quality, so it was fine. The
only ones I mind are the ones that are long AND have lots of severe errors.
> I don't have the Klingon for the Galactic Traveller yet
> (I can't find it here in Huntsville) so there may be some
> words that are more appropriate, but I don't know them yet!
> Of course, there are plenty in TDK I don't know yet 8-)
If you give up on your local bookstores, you can order it from the KLI
merchant page or from Amazon.
pagh
Beginners' Grammarian