tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 01 18:20:35 1998

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Re: long weekend with MO

From: Steven Boozer <[email protected]>
>{yaS SuvmeH Qatlh Qu'} "In order to fight the officer, the task is
difficult"
>seems awfully convoluted.  Why make things difficult for yourself and
create a
>special "weather rule" until Okrand states it explicitly?  ST5 would seem
to
>permit {yaS SuvmeH Qatlh}:

I don't see it as convoluted.  I believe we have examples of {Qu'} being
used in this sort of way (but since my Klingon-copying project has
languished horribly, I can't bring them up—perhaps you would be so kind?).
Leaving out such a subject seems to be an option, not a requirement.

>Vixis: nejwI' tIQ 'oH.
> A probe of ancient origin.
>Klaa: qIpmeH Qatlh'a'?
> Difficult to hit?
> ("Is it difficult to hit?")
>Vixis: Qatlhqu'.
> Most difficult.
> ("It is very difficult.")
>Klaa: maj.
> Good.
>
>Does "it" in Klaa's question and Vixis' answer refer to the probe or is
this the
>indefinite or vague "it" used in "it is raining"?

Or more concrete noun like {Qu'} or {wanI'} which has been elided, or a
similar possible subject with the weather verbs?  All of this is
inconclusive.

>We do have other examples of
>this vague "it" in canon:
>
>  Do'Ha' "It is unfortunate." (TKD)

Depends on the context.  {Do'Ha' SuvwI'} "The warrior is unfortunate" is a
perfectly ordinary use of the verb.  Kruge's line in Star Trek III, {Do'Ha'}
"Unfortunate," is less ordinary.  It may be some sort of vague nounlessness,
or it may simply be a subject which has been dropped, like {ghu'lIj} or
{SanlIj} or something.  Even in English, if someone says "Too bad," we
recognize that *something* is too bad, but we don't have to say it if we
don't want to.

>  yImev, yap! "Stop! It is enough!" (KGT p.113)

Presumably, something is happening which you want stopped.  This would be
the subject of {yap}, not some subjectlessness.

yImev, yap!

yaq nuq?

yap ghoHtaHghachraj.  yImev!

>There are also examples in the sample conjugated verbs in the often
maligned

. . . and often rightfully so . . .

>"MSN" Klingon Lesson materials at Star Trek: Continuum (so called because
the
>site was previously hosted on The Microsoft Network).  Although the
>"definitions" at the site were in fact written by STC staff, the words and
>translations themselves were provided by Okrand, who also recorded a sound
file
>for each word.
>
>  Duy' "It is defective."
>  Hurgh "It is dark."
>  ngeb "It is false."
>  ngeD "It is easy."
>  ngo' "It is old (not young)."
>  SuQ "It is toxic."
>  tlhol "It is raw."
>  'ugh "It is heavy."
>
>The intriguing items on this list are {Hurgh} "It is dark" and {ngeD} "It
is
>easy".  Must "it" refer to a tangible object previously mentioned or
implied by
>context (admittedly true of the other examples), or can this also be the
vague
>"it" in {SIS} "It is raining"?

Who knows?  One thing is clear: {Hurgh} and {ngeD} certainly CAN take
ordinary subjects like the others.  Just because English uses certain idioms
which use these verbs doesn't mean something special is going to happen with
the Klingon equivalent.

And I'm still unclear how the subject of {SIS} is a "vague it."  Okrand told
DloraH that everyone would obviously know what the subject of the sentence
is, which to me seems like a strong reason to drop it for convenience.  That
doesn't mean the subject is a vague "it," it just means you don't generally
say it, whatever it is.  Maybe it *is* a special grammatical feature, but I
don't see this as evidence to that point.

>Each of these examples is accompanied by an
>explanation: e.g. "The quality Duy', meaning defective, as used in a
sentence."
>What exactly does "as used in a sentence" mean?  A complete, one word
sentence
>or as used as part of a longer sentence?

Entirely irrelevant, since these "definitions" were not made by Okrand, or
with his approval.

>Other one word examples are presented
>with the other verb prefixes: e.g. {bI'IH} "You are beautiful."  {chotIch}
"You
>insult me."  {qatlhob} "I ask you."

The word itself, and the literal translation, are the only parts which have
any bearing.  These words count as "canon," since they are straight from
Okrand.

>So, can you say:
>
>  Hurgh.
>  "It is dark." (looking out your window at night)

Probably.  However, I'd guess that grammatically you are making use of a
subject, even if you haven't specified it carefully.  We can also say things
like {Hurgh DarghwIj} "My tea is dark."

>  tlhIngan Hol jatlhmeH ngeD.
>  "Speaking Klingon is easy. It is easy to speak Klingon."

This follows the same pattern as {qIpmeH Qatlh'a'} and poses the same
questions.

I don't think this weather-word thing has given us anything new except a
certainty on how to say it's raining or snowing.

SuStel
Stardate 98414.4

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