tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Dec 11 07:53:30 1998
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RE: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
- From: "Artist, Herbert" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
- Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:55:31 -0500
I must admit... I'm new to this language. I subscribed to this from
Tipworld.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William H. Martin [SMTP:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 10:43 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
>
> I'm surprised that you don't seem to know about the Krankor
> Rule. That's just my name for it, but years ago, our illustrious
> captain realized that if a relative clause has both a subject
> AND an object, you can't tell which of these two are the head
> noun.
>
> Since {'e'} is supposed to function basically as a means of
> saying, "Hey! Look at THIS noun. THIS is the IMPORTANT noun!"
> that it could be used in such a relative clause to point out
> which of the two nouns is the head noun. I'll get more specific
> below.
>
> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:56:30 -0800 (PST) Steven Boozer
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> choH lISbogh Hap'e': cha'pujqut
> > >> Reaction Moderating Element - Crystalline Dilithium
> >
> > SuSvaj:
> > : Hmmm. "Hap'e'", is the 'e' there for emphasis, or is "Hap'e'"
> intended as
> > : a new word for "element"?
>
> No. Without {-'e'} here, either {choH} or {Hap} could have been
> the head noun. It could have either meant "matter which adjusts
> change" or "change which is adjusted by matter". Okrand wanted
> to make sure that we know he is talking about the matter and not
> the change.
>
> > Herbert Artist:
> > : I don't understand?
> >
> > Normally, {-'e'} is used to mark the "topic" of the sentence, which is
> usually
> > (though not always) the subject noun. It is also required in sentences
> of the
> > "A is B" type, or in Klingon {B 'oH A'e'}.
>
> These are what we are told about {'e'} in TKD. Krankor's usage
> came after that and Okrand did approve it and has used it in
> other settings, though not every time it might have been
> considered appropriate.
>
> > There's a sentence of this type on
> > the poster (at least, it's a complete sentence in the Klingon):
> >
> > tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq
> wa'DIch'e'
> > 1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World
>
> We all agree on this one.
>
> > It is unusual to see {-'e'} in a simple noun phrase like this,
> particularly
> > since Okrand didn't use it with the other {-bogh} phrase on the poster,
> which
> > appears in this very same check-off list:
> >
> > muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
> > Atmosperic Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6
> >
> > Note, however, that here {'eDSeHcha} is not the subject of the verb plus
> > {-bogh} but rather its object, so the two examples are not 100%
> equivalent.
>
> The main difference is that in this case, the relative clause
> has only one explicit noun. The relative clause is {'eDSeHcha
> lulaQlu'bogh}. Obviously, the head noun is {'eDSeHcha}. There is
> no need for {-'e'} here.
>
> > I wonder whether {Hap'e'} might be a publisher's typo for *{Hap'a'}?
>
> I think you are way off base here. It's just a windmill, Quixote.
>
> > {Hap}
> > means "matter (substance)" and appears in the phrase {Sor Hap} "wood" -
> > used in
> > {Sor Hap 'In}, a "type of percussion instrument made of wood" (KGT
> p.75). Its
> > antonym appears to be {rugh} "antimatter (substance)", which also
> appears in
> > KBP:
> >
> > nIn: rugh bIQSIp
> > Fuel - Anti Hydrogen
> >
> > BTW, Okrand used {-'a'} to create four other new nouns:
>
> Yes, but not here. You are looking too hard for something that
> is not there.
>
> > chob'a' main corridor (the long neck connecting the head of
> > the BoP with its body)
> >
> > cheb'a' an untranslated unit of weight, apparently 9 times an
> > ordinary {cheb} (ca. 2.25 kg) according to charghwI'
> >
> > chuq'a' long range
> >
> > SoSbor'a' main core (computer)
> >
> > So ?{Hap'a'} "element" ("main/primordial matter") becomes plausible.
>
> No. He is just indicating that it is head noun to a relative
> clause where the other noun {choH} could have been
> misinterpreted as head noun. The poster is right. You are
> misguided.
>
> > OTOH, is {cha'pujqut} "dilithium crystal" really considered an *element*
> in
> > Trekdom? Okrand may be using {Hap} simply to mean "material, substance"
> here,
> > in which case the {-'e'} may well be for emphasis.
>
> Well, not really emphasis so much as disambiguation.
>
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > Voragh "Grammatici certant et adhuc sub
> judice
> > Ca'Non Master of the Klingons lis est." Horace (Ars
> Poetica)
>
> charghwI' 'utlh