tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Dec 11 07:20:16 1998
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Re: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
- Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:20:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
- Priority: NORMAL
I'm surprised that you don't seem to know about the Krankor
Rule. That's just my name for it, but years ago, our illustrious
captain realized that if a relative clause has both a subject
AND an object, you can't tell which of these two are the head
noun.
Since {'e'} is supposed to function basically as a means of
saying, "Hey! Look at THIS noun. THIS is the IMPORTANT noun!"
that it could be used in such a relative clause to point out
which of the two nouns is the head noun. I'll get more specific
below.
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:56:30 -0800 (PST) Steven Boozer
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> choH lISbogh Hap'e': cha'pujqut
> >> Reaction Moderating Element - Crystalline Dilithium
>
> SuSvaj:
> : Hmmm. "Hap'e'", is the 'e' there for emphasis, or is "Hap'e'" intended as
> : a new word for "element"?
No. Without {-'e'} here, either {choH} or {Hap} could have been
the head noun. It could have either meant "matter which adjusts
change" or "change which is adjusted by matter". Okrand wanted
to make sure that we know he is talking about the matter and not
the change.
> Herbert Artist:
> : I don't understand?
>
> Normally, {-'e'} is used to mark the "topic" of the sentence, which is usually
> (though not always) the subject noun. It is also required in sentences of the
> "A is B" type, or in Klingon {B 'oH A'e'}.
These are what we are told about {'e'} in TKD. Krankor's usage
came after that and Okrand did approve it and has used it in
other settings, though not every time it might have been
considered appropriate.
> There's a sentence of this type on
> the poster (at least, it's a complete sentence in the Klingon):
>
> tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq wa'DIch'e'
> 1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World
We all agree on this one.
> It is unusual to see {-'e'} in a simple noun phrase like this, particularly
> since Okrand didn't use it with the other {-bogh} phrase on the poster, which
> appears in this very same check-off list:
>
> muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
> Atmosperic Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6
>
> Note, however, that here {'eDSeHcha} is not the subject of the verb plus
> {-bogh} but rather its object, so the two examples are not 100% equivalent.
The main difference is that in this case, the relative clause
has only one explicit noun. The relative clause is {'eDSeHcha
lulaQlu'bogh}. Obviously, the head noun is {'eDSeHcha}. There is
no need for {-'e'} here.
> I wonder whether {Hap'e'} might be a publisher's typo for *{Hap'a'}?
I think you are way off base here. It's just a windmill, Quixote.
> {Hap}
> means "matter (substance)" and appears in the phrase {Sor Hap} "wood" -
> used in
> {Sor Hap 'In}, a "type of percussion instrument made of wood" (KGT p.75). Its
> antonym appears to be {rugh} "antimatter (substance)", which also appears in
> KBP:
>
> nIn: rugh bIQSIp
> Fuel - Anti Hydrogen
>
> BTW, Okrand used {-'a'} to create four other new nouns:
Yes, but not here. You are looking too hard for something that
is not there.
> chob'a' main corridor (the long neck connecting the head of
> the BoP with its body)
>
> cheb'a' an untranslated unit of weight, apparently 9 times an
> ordinary {cheb} (ca. 2.25 kg) according to charghwI'
>
> chuq'a' long range
>
> SoSbor'a' main core (computer)
>
> So ?{Hap'a'} "element" ("main/primordial matter") becomes plausible.
No. He is just indicating that it is head noun to a relative
clause where the other noun {choH} could have been
misinterpreted as head noun. The poster is right. You are
misguided.
> OTOH, is {cha'pujqut} "dilithium crystal" really considered an *element* in
> Trekdom? Okrand may be using {Hap} simply to mean "material, substance" here,
> in which case the {-'e'} may well be for emphasis.
Well, not really emphasis so much as disambiguation.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Voragh "Grammatici certant et adhuc sub judice
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons lis est." Horace (Ars Poetica)
charghwI' 'utlh