tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Sep 07 20:12:46 1997
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Re: A nIb gem
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: A nIb gem
- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:13:04 -0400 ()
- Priority: NORMAL
On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Alan Anderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
> ja' peHruS:
> >loD jen law' be' jen puS (TKD grammar rules)
>
> pupbe'law' <jen>. chaq nIv <be' run law' loD run puS>.
Also consider {runHa'}...
> >KGT 178-179 says antonyms are used in slang as replacements for law'/puS in
> >comparisons and superlatives
> >
> >loD jen law' be' jen nIb (my own invention)
>
> nuqjatlh?
Dap jatlh.
> >This means to me "The man is the same height (amount of jen = tall) as the
> >woman."
Yet another previously undiscovered dialect! toH, wo'Daq nuqDaq
bIDab?
> >Obviously, {nIb} is not the antonym of {law'}.
Basically, you can't mess with the very strict structure of the
{law'/puS} construction. It is an exception to normal grammar
and variations are not allowed.
> quSDaq bIba'. rapHa'be'ba' <law'> <nIb> je.
> vaj <law'/puS> lIw mojlaHbe'qu'bej <law'/nIb>.
jIQochbe'chu'.
> >Furthermore, KGT 127-133 supplies plenty of examples of similes. The general
> >pattern is jen loD; rur Sor.
>
> loQ bIQagh. lugh <jen loD; Sor rur>.
> vaj yIjatlh <jen loD; be' rur>.
I believe his intent was to say, "The woman was as tall as a
man," since that is more of a simile than "The man was as tall
as a woman." While Qov and a few others are exceptions,
statistically speaking, men are more often taller than women. If
you speak of a man being as tall as a woman, {run} is a better
verb.
While I suspect your presumption that these generalized similes
given in the book represent a grammatical construction that can
be used in instances of specific comparisons, do realize that
this is a presumption. All of Okrand's examples compare
something to an architype, not to a specific entity in the real
world. That's where {jen loD. Sor rur,} made sense to me. "The
man is as tall as a tree." That is the kind of simile Okrand
gives us on those pages.
This comparison of a specific man and a specific woman is not
addressed in KGT so far as I can tell. Likely, it follows the
same grammatical device, but do be quite aware that this may not
be the case. "Daniel Boone was as tall as a tree," and "Daniel
Boone was as tall as Ringo Starr," use the same grammatical
construction, but the imagery and symbolism of these two are
completely different. It is quite possible that in another
language, different grammatical constructions might be used for
these different kinds of thoughts.
> >Still, I couldn't erase from my mind the gem made possible by putting {nIb}
> >in the second position of law'/puS constructions.
Get a better eraser. nagh le'Ha' 'oH. naghboch 'oHbe'bej.
> yablIjvo' qechvam DalojmoH 'e' yInIDqa'.
> Qapbe' <law'/nIb>.
QapHa' <law'/nIb>. lujbej <law/nIb>. He'So' <law'/nIb>.
> >Comments, please.
>
> qatlh pabqoq Da'oghqa'taH?
>
> SKI: Yes, KGT says antonyms fit in the {law'/pus} slots.
> Yes, {law'} and
> {nIb} are not antonyms -- so they don't fit. Yes, the general pattern for
> simile is {jen loD; Sor rur} -- so that is what you should use instead of
> making up something without justification.
>
> -- ghunchu'wI'
charghwI'