tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Oct 14 13:29:40 1997

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Re: MUSH CLASS

At 17:45 97-10-13 -0700, you wrote:
}Qov wrote:

}>For anyone ho *can't* make it, I'm logging the lectures and if neither of
}>this week's students contacts me with objections to having the transcript
}>shared, I'll send it to anyone who asks.
}
}That would be good... please send it this way, thanks.

Attached.

A slightly edited transcript of the online tlhIngan Hol class, Sunday October 12, 1997

Qov is teaching the class.
ghunchu'wI' is a former beginners' grammarian
qoror and edy are Klingonists slightly more advanced than the class was intended for -- I designed this for complete beginners but you'll notice we speak in Klingon at times.  

Note that in the MUSH environment there can be a bit of delay between when you type something and when you see it on the screen.  Sometimes this results in interlaced threads of convversation, where a person is answering a comment a few lines back.

DuSaQ pa'
A classroom befitting those learning the warriors' tongue. Iron frame desks with stone slab writing surfaces face a podium in front of a large HaSta. One the walls are some charts and cheat sheets to help you remember how to do things properly.

a b ch D e gh H I j l m n ng o p q Q r S t tlh u v w y '

Qap'a'meyna'rajmo' SujatlhchuqrupchoHmoHlaHbejlI'neS'a'?


Contents:
qoror
edy
ghunchu'wI'
Qov
Example from TKD section 3.3.6, page 29
prefix/suffix chart
Obvious exits:
Out <O>

You say "Nouns."
You say "You can identify most of them because they are marked with an (n). in the back of TKD."
edy says "lu'. Ha'"
You say "There are some nouns that are formed by adding -wI' or -ghach to verbs and you have to look out for those when reading sentences so you don't get confused beteen nouns and verbs."
You say "But all nouns, no matter how they are formed, can take suffixes."
You say "There are five types of noun suffixes and any one noun can have no more than one of each type."
You say "Plus the suffixes must be arranged in order."
You say "qoror, what are the three type-1 noun suffixes. Don't look in your book unless you have to."
qoror says "-'a', -Hom, -oy je."
You say "maj. chovnatlhmey tIchup."
qoror says "DuSaQHom"
You say "DuSaQHom yIDel."
qoror says "HI-- puS ghojwI"
You say "edy, think of some examples of nouns with type-1 suffixes -Hom, -'a' or -oy."
You say "jan'a' yIDel."
edy says ""juH""
edy says "bit device"
edy says "big"
You say "Yes, but the suffix -'a' expresses mor than just big."
You say "A noun with -'a' is a higher order of the noun."
You say "A jan tIn - big device, is just a big device."
qoror says "edy, qatlh "juH" Dajatlh?"
edy says "nothing .. I thought I had to write."
You say "This is where it can be tough with English as a non-native language, edy, because the best way to translate -'a' is often to use another word altogether. Maybe "contraption" for jan'a'."
qoror says "More efficient, more powerful."
You say "But I think you have similar suffixes: does Portugeuse have an -ino and -issimo?"
edy says "HIja' :-)))"
edy says "in spanish "ino" and port. "inho"
You say "Those are both like -Hom, right?"
edy says "" not exatly .."
edy says "but quite near"
ghunchu'wI' says "According to my High School teacher, the equivalent suffixes in Spanish just connote size."
Qov ahs.
You say "I was thinking of fortissimo in piano."
You say "Ok, so it doesn't work."
qoror says "From Italiean there's -issimo in "fortissimo" and "pianissimo", but there it's more like "very.""
edy says ""
edy says "wait .."
You say "Do you know the english word 'tusk' Edy?"
edy says "there are lot of differences"
qoror says "Very loud and Very soft."
edy says ""tusk - teeth?"
You say "It's the name for the huge teeth on an elephant."
qoror says "And a few other animals."
You say "How would you say 'tusk' in Klingon?"
edy says "okay .. I have my english dictionry here too"
You say "Ok, I'll stop patronizing you then. :)"
edy says ""pach"?"
You say "A tusk is a sort of a tooth, only much bigger and miore impressive, right?"
edy says "okay .."
edy says "so i have to write: Ho''a'?"
You say "Right!"
You say "Ho''a' could also mean fang. In the right context it might even represent a molar."
edy says "but I can not imagin a word for jan'a'"
You say "Do you know the word 'contraption?'"
You say "Sometimes there is no word."
edy says "oksy .. got it!!!"
qoror says "How about "behemoth", if you want to get poetic?"
ghunchu'wI' says "Behemoth is literally a large *animal*."
You say "The same object could posibly be referred to as a janHom, a jan and a jan'a' in different contexts."
ghunchu'wI' says "I might translate <janHom> as "gizmo"."
qoror says ""behemoth" seems to be from Hebrew, intensive plural, meaning "great beast." 
You say "You are usually safe saiying 'minor device' 'device' 'major device' but you lose some of the richness."
edy says "a little break here."
You say "Question, or just afk?"
edy says "Qov, the sufix -issimo, means the superlative, ok."
You say "Ok, yeah I was wrong there."
ghunchu'wI' says "Thanks, qoror. I had forgotten that Hebrew has the intensive forms. I'll ask my Sabra friend about how they're used."
edy says "but "back to work"
ghunchu'wI' says "The type 1 noun suffixes usually indicate a *qualitative* difference. It's not just bigger/smaller, it's more/less important or impressive."
Qov nodnods to ghunchu'wI''s comment.
You say "What might a quS'a' be?"
edy says "poltrona" :-))"
ghunchu'wI' says "Not qoH'a', edy."
qoror says "It could be "throne", given that "mIv'a'" means "crown.""
edy says "don't know the exatcly word, but I know what it means"
You say "Ahh, careful. mIv'a' doesn't *mean* crown."
You say "Yes, quS'a' could mean throne, and mIv'a' could mean crown."
ghunchu'wI' is relying on years-old knowledge of Spanish to interpret "poltrona" as clown or buffoon.
edy says "a kind of arm-chair?"
qoror says "It says in KGT that "mIv'a'" means "crown." Some kind of more majestic, grand helmet."
You say "Good, like a French fauteuil, edy, bIlugh."
Qov nods. "Exactly. A crown is some kind of more majectic, grand helmet."
edy says "be a little patiente because now I have to use 3 dictionaries"
qoror says "And I just got out my French mu'ghom."
You say "But there could be some kind of majestic, grand helmet that English speakers wouldn't call a crown, but that Klingon speakers would call a mIv'a'."
qoror says "Like that thing the judge was wearing in ST6?"
ghunchu'wI' says "Like the German Colonel's helmet, the one with a spike on top. Or the thing the Pope wears -- a mitre?"
Qov grins. "I shouldn't have brought in fauteuil. It's just that whenever I learn a foreign word that has no English match, I tend to take that word into my internal vocabulary."
Qov nods at all the mIv'a'mey.
You say "We've got that one."
edy says "a question: So, a Sut'a', can mean a majestic clothes?"
qoror says "I think it's the "miture.""
You say "Oooh."
ghunchu'wI' says "I think of formal wear. A tuxedo."
You say "Yes, Sut'a' could be your Sunday best."
qoror says "There's always the idiom "mIv je DaS tuQ"."
qoror says "KGT page 107."
ghunchu'wI' says "A janitor in "full dress" probably wouldn't call his uniform <Sut'a'>."
You say "Ok, -oy is pretty easy. Give me a couple of examples of -oy, both of you."
qoror says "Do janitors *have* full dress? Just "HIp" for them, probably."
qoror says "vavnI'oy"
edy says "mu'ghomoy :-))"
qoror says "be'nI'oy"
Qov grins. "vIghro'oy"
ghunchu'wI' says "ghojmoqoy"
You say "Kitty cat."
You say "nana"
You say "Lets move on to plurals. You have those."
You say "There are five ways to make a Klingon noun plural."
You say "The first is the easiest. Leave it alone."
You say "yIH - tribble"
You say "yIH - tribbles"
qoror says "Whi"
qoqyIH has arrived.
qoqyIH has left.
qoqyIH has arrived.
qoqyIH rolls up to ghunchu'wI'.
edy says "yIHmey, qar'a'"
You say "Don't forget that one, when you're writing or when you're reading."
qoror says "HIbuS"
You say "yIH also means tribbles."
qoror says "HIbuSHa'"
qoqyIH squeals loudly at qoror.
ghunchu'wI' says "qoqyIH, juH jaH"
qoqyIH droops
edy says "in CK there are yIHmey"
You say "Most Klingon nouns can be singular OR plural."
qoqyIH goes home.
qoqyIH has left.
edy says "okay .."
You say "I'm getting there, edy."
You say "paq - book OR books"
You say "I want to make sure you understand that adding suffixes isn't the ONLY way to make a noun plural."
edy says "is there a schedule with all these names?"
You say "If I say: vagh paq"
edy says "5 books"
You say "I mean five books. No doubt about it. paq there means books, plural."
You say "Right."
ghunchu'wI' says "yIH DIyach"
qoror says "paq vagh?"
You say "What do you mean by schedule with these names?"
edy says "table of contents"
You say "paq vagh is book number five."
ghunchu'wI' says "Book #5. That doesn't quite imply that there actually are books 1-4."
You say "This is on p.21-22 of TKD."
ghunchu'wI' says "Even if it does, <paq> is referring to *one* book here."
edy says "" lu'Ha'"
You say "Right."
You say "Now another way to make a noun plural."
You say "There are some nouns that *can't* be treated a plural, that always represent one thing."
You say "Most nouns are like this in English. cat always means one cat, never lots of cats."
qoror says "Unless you're talking about catkind."
You say "Some Klingon nouns are like English 'child.'"
You say "They have a completely different form for the plural."
You say "child --> children"
You say "DoS -> ray'"
You say "jengva' --> ngop"
You say "peng --> cha"
ghunchu'wI' says "mang --> negh"
You say "You just have to memorize these exceptions."
You say "I'll get back to something about them."
You say "The normal way you make a plural in English is by adding 's' or 'es'."
qoror says "vIj --> chuyDaH"
You say "The normal way you make an explicit plural in Klingon is by adding -mey -pu' or -Du'."
You say "When do you use which, edy?"
edy says "mey for genreal things"
edy says "-DU for body parts"
edy says ""-pu for beings who use language"
You say "Don't forget the letter '"
edy says "ok"
You say "The ' is just as important as, say, the w. :)"
Qov apolgizes for all the missed w's: bad keyboard.
[note, I've corrected the mising w's in thi transcript]
edy says "-Du' 'e"
edy says "-pu'"
qoror says "meb DIghaj. DaH jImejnIS. ghojmoH 'e' vItIv. Qapla'"
qoror has disconnected.
You say "Lets hear some examples: make these plural": ghIch, puqloD, boQDu', jan, nov, chIrgh"
edy says "ghIchDu'"
edy says "boQDU'mey"
edy says "janmey"
edy says "novpu'"
edy says "chIrghmey"
You say "Do you know what a boQDu' is?"
edy says "aid of camp .."
edy says "i don't know what it means .. :("
You say "It's a person ho helps a military officer."
You say "Assistant."
edy says "thanks .."
edy says "so boQDu'pu'"
ghunchu'wI' says "If a <boQDu'> is like a gofer... perhaps <boQDu'mey> makes sense. :-)"
You say "qar."
Qov laughs at ghunchu'wI'.
ghunchu'wI' is making a joke. Don't get confused, edy.
You say "That's a good segue."
edy says "I don't mind .. I like jokes too!!!"
You say "If you put the suffix -mey on something that should have a plural with -Du' or with -pu' or with a completely differnet word ..."
You say "Then it gives the idea that that thing is scattered around, everywhere."
ghunchu'wI' says "puqmey. DoSmey."
You say "At your house at Christmas, ghaytan puqmey tu'lu'."
edy says "children scattered all places"
edy says "ghobe'"
edy says "ehehe .."
edy says "Nero jIparHa'"
edy says "vIparHa'"
You say "After a party there might be jengva'mey - plates scattered all around."
edy says "but I'm jokking"
ghunchu'wI' says "jIyajbe'"
edy says "HIja'"
You say "Nero, one presumes, confined the children?"
edy says "puqpu' jIparHa'"
edy says "ops .. vIparHa'"
edy says "jengva'?"
You say "PLate."
You say "It's in KGT."
edy says "ah .. KGT"
You say "One note before we leave plurals.  I said I'd get back to this."
You say "Nouns that are intrinsically plural, like ray' are treated as grammatically singular."
edy says "like english "all" right?"
You say "So ray' wIlegh is correct and ray' DIlegh is not. Good one. Yes, like all."
edy says "okay .. let's go"
ghunchu'wI' says "peng is singular torpedo. cha is singular "multiple torpedoes" or 
You say "The type 3 suffixes indicate how sure the speaker is that the noun is what he says it is."
edy says "yes"
You say "So if I say Dujqoq I have such a low opinion of the ship that I don't think it's really worth calling a ship."
You say "If it were your ship it would be an insult."
edy says "your instinct too""
edy says "terrible insult!!!"
You say "Sure, so-called instincts."
You say "If we did something because you said you had an instinct and it got us into trouble, I might say it was because of DujqoqlIj -- your so-called instincts."
edy says "Qov, I have to go in 5 minutes."
You say "pu'HIchHey ghaj."
You say "Fair enough."
You say "Any questions?"
edy says "What do you think we continue next week?"
You say "Will do. Sunday October 19th 9h pacific time."
edy says "no questions at now"
edy says "It has been very usefull these lessosn"
edy says "and I'm enhjoing it a lot"
edy says "puqpu'wI', DaH jImejnIS"
ghunchu'wI' says "batlh bIHaDtaH."
edy says "See next week."
ghunchu'wI' says "puqlIj jIHbe'!"
edy says "ops .. jupwI'"
edy says "my friends"
ghunchu'wI' says "maj. juplI' jIH 'e' vIlajqang."
edy says "Qapla'"
edy has disconnected.
ghunchu'wI' says "cheghpu' qorDu'wIj. DaH jImej."
ghunchu'wI' goes home.
ghunchu'wI' has left.
Qov is done.


Qov     [email protected]
Beginners' Grammarian

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