tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Oct 09 00:41:43 1997

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Re: KLBC: Requiem - Recordare/Confutatis/Lacrimosa

At 04:54 97-10-08 -0700, edy wrote:

> chonejlI'. maHvaD bIHeghta'. paghvaD bIHeghbe'ta'
> (You were looking for me. You died for us. You didn't died for
> nothing)
>
> What is the difference from: <Sam> and <nej> ?

Good question.
{Sam} is "find, locate" and {nej} is "look for, search, try to find'

qaStaHvIS wej jaj vInejlI'.  DaHjaj vISam.
"I looked for it for three days.  Today I found it."

vay' DaSamDI' Danejbe'choH.
"When you find something, you stop looking for it."

> noHwI' quv, qaSpa' yoj jaj HeSmeywIj tIlIj
> jIDIv jIlujpu'mo'. QeylIS joHwI', HeSmeywIj tIlIj
> pujwI' yemwI' joq DalIjpu'bogh, HIlIj
> (you, wich had forgiven the weakers and sinners, forgive me)

You're still saying "forget me" instead of "forgive me."  Can you see 
how "HeSmeywIj tIlIj" works for "forgive my sins" but "HIlIj" is 
different than forgive me?  Find another solution.  I suggested {laj} 
before. If that's not the right connotation, find something else.  
But I'm pretty sure you don't want to ask to be forgotten.

> chavmey quv vIghajbe' vaj qIchQo'
> (I don't have great achievments, so, don't comdemn me)

Imperative prefixes:  when you are directly asking, forbidding, 
requesting, pleading, ordering or otherwise giving someone 
instructions, you use an imperative prefix on the main verb.  These 
prefixes are in a table on page 34.  The prefix varies according 1. 
to the number of people to whom the command is being given, and 2. 
who or what the command is to be performed on.  In this case you are 
asking that the action [not] be performed on you.  The table shows 
that when the object is first person singular, "me," the prefix is 
{HI-}.  {HIqIchQo'} - "don't condemn me."

> nIH DeSlIj HIDev 'ej qIjyo' HImuv
> (Lead me on your right side and join me into the Black Fleet)
>
> More imperative prefixes and a couple of N5 suffixes needed. How 
> will you say "on" and "into"?
>
> Really don't know. :(

qay'be'. Now I can tell you. :)  To say 'in' 'at' 'to' 'on' 'into' 
'onto' 'toward' any physical object or location in Klingon we put the 
type 5 suffix {-Daq} on the noun representing that object.  The 
resulting noun is _not_ the subject or object of the sentence. It 
always goes before the OVS clause it is for, and the verb prefix is 
not chosen to agree with it. Examples: {Qe'Daq jISop} "I eat in the 
restaurant" {DujlIjDaq qaHoH} "I will kill you on your ship."  
{che'ronDaq mayIt} "we walked onto the battlefield"  ({che'ron} - 
battlefield).  

{-Daq} is not used to say in or at a time, or to translate any of the 
locative prepostions in idioms or other contextswhere they don't 
refer to physical movement or location.  

Read more about {-Daq} in section <3.3.5> on the suffix {-Daq}, 
<6.1> on word order, and <3.4> for an exception, when {-Daq} isn't 
used on a noun.

For "join me into the black fleet" I suggest you say "cause me to 
begin serving in the black fleet."  It's less awkward in Klingon, 
even though it looks worse in English.  Use the suffix {-choH} for 
"begin."

> nuchpu' tIpIch 'ej tay' yoHwI'pu' jIH je ghoDev
> (Blame the cowards and lead the brave ones and me together)

That's not bad.  There's a problem that you have two verbs in one 
clause, though.  {tay'} is not an adverb, it's a verb.  Try writing 
it as "... lead the brave ones and me while we are together."

> qa'wI' yIQorgh Daqoy'meH
> (I beg you to take care my spirit)

Here is a case where it looks like you would use the imperative, but 
you don't, because even though you say you are begging, you aren't 
directly begging.  It's the same if you say "I want" "I need"  "I 
ask" "I require" or something similar.

About {-meH} for purpose clauses: To express the idea that an 
action is done for a purpose or in order that something happen, the 
verb representing the purpose or objective takes the type 9 suffix 
{-meH}. The {-meH} suffix *doesn't* go on the thing that is done 
to achieve that purpose.  It goes on the purpose.  The verb that has 
{-meH} on it always goes before the verb that it refers to.  
Examples: {SughojmeH Saqun} "I scold you so you learn" {bIyIntaHmeH 
SoH ghaH vIHoH} "I killed her in order for you to live" {QaghDaj 
So'meH yaS nep} "The officer lied in order to cover his mistakes."

You *could* simply say {qa'wI' yIQorghneS} or even {qa'wI' 
yIQorghneSqu'} which would mean roughly, "Oh honoured one, please 
look after my spirit."  Actual begging, rather than just saying 
you are begging.  More direct.

> yoj jaj tu'lu'. jajvetlh Hoch qa' DanoHmeH bIghoS 
> Hochmey tIlIj quv QeylIS joHwI'. chaHvaD ngeHbej roj yInob. Qapla'
> (Forgive them all, Kahless my lord. Give them the cosmic peace. 
> Amen)
>
> {Hoch} is gramatically singular,

Once again, a stative verb FOLLOWS the noun it modifies. {qeylIS quv}
It really doesn't make sence to make Hoch plural.  We don't say 
"alls" in English, and I don't think you say "todoses" do you?  
"Everything" already refers to everything so what's the point of 
making it plural?  {Hoch} is treated as grammatically singular, so 
you say {Hoch yIlIj}, but it represents plural objects so you don't 
need to say {Hochmey} or {Hochpu'}.

>> plus the problem of using {lIj} in
>> reference to a person instead of an act recurs. Perhaps {laj} for
>> this meaning.
>{laj} ???

Here is the way I see it.  I don't know this religion, or what is 
encompassed by forgiving in this context, but I assume that the 
request is for the lord to not hold your sins/crimes against you and 
to accept you despite them.  Therefore {HeSmeywIj tIlIj} asks that 
he forget what you *did*, but {HIlaj} asks that he accept *you*.  If 
I were asking a traffic cop to forgive me, I can see saying 
{HIlIjneS}, but your goal is to have the lord accept you, isn't it?  
The implication I suggest is "accept me despite my sins."  That to me 
is close to the idea of forgiveness.  You decide.  Use whichever word 
you mean, but mean the word that you use. 

> To say [forgive them ALL], it means, ALL spirits (with no 
> exception), can I use Hochmey (all over all places)?

How about {Dat Hoch ...} "all everywhere"?

>>toH. laHlIj DaDubtaH. 
> jIDub'eghtaH

'e' wIleghbej.

Here are some sentences for you to translate to get those stative 
verbs in the right place.  Double check them all.  Remember, if you 
are using the verb as a verb, the verb goes BEFORE the subject, but 
if you are using it as an adjective it goes AFTER the noun.
Examples: {chIS jIb} "hair is white"  and {jIb chIS} "white hair."

I am tired.
The big ship is blue.
The hungry spies like black coffee.
A sharp knife is impressive.
We watch the shiny targets.
The irritable captain scolds the lazy yeoman because of the dirty 
floor.
The alien man is thirsty and cold water is wet.

Qov     [email protected]
Beginners' Grammarian

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