tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 26 06:17:55 1997

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Re: tlhoghtay



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>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:55:15 -0800 (PST)
>From: "QalI' ma epetaI Sla'neS" <[email protected]>

Nobody else touched this, so I guess it's up to the Grammarian (for a
change; I've been shirking a lot).

You certainly worked hard on making a ceremony that was grammatical and
culturally sensible!  But you had some trouble with some of the fine points
of grammar, I think.

>Qar'Deth:  vajpu' cha' tlhInganpu' batlh roSbogh tlhoghtay
>wIleghmeH       naDev maH. 

- From the "tlhoghtay" onward I can see it.  "we are here to see (something
something something) marriage ceremony."  The beginning is giving me
trouble.  The only word I have for "roS" is "lick".  A marriage ceremony
that licks?  That licks honorably?  That licks honor?  The "vajpu'" and
"cha' tlhInganpu'"... are those in apposition ("two Klingons, warriors"),
N-N construction ("the warriors' two Klingons"), vocative ("warriors (those
present), we are here...") or what?  Also note that in KGT we're told that
"vaj" only means a warrior in general, sort of the Platonic Form of a
warrior, not a specific person.  What's the role of "batlh"?  Sorry, this
sentence really got me puzzled.

> tlhInganpu'vam je qormey'chaj muv tlhoghtay
>'ej wo'       HoSmoH tlhoghtay.  vajpu'vam 'oS 'Iv?

Remember that "je" comes *after* the nouns conjoined, not between them.
The transitivity of "muv" is still in debate, I think (can you use it like
this, with the things being joined together as a compound object?), but I
find this usage of it acceptable, at least for now.  "qor" means "to
scavenge"; a family is "qorDu'".

"The marriage ceremony joins these Klingons and their families, and the
marriage ceremony strengthens the Empire.  Who represents these warriors?"

(See note above regarding vajpu')

>
>geron:  geron jIH, 'ej QanDuj'Sogh yojneS taI Qorn vI'oS.  targh
>pa'taH    naDev ghaHtaH!
>   (yoj is at this time forcibly encouraged to come forward with 
>oy'naQmey.)

I'm assuming "QanDuj'Sogh yojneS taI Qorn" is all the name and/or
non-tlhIngan-Hol titles, since I can't really parse it meaningfully (I see
"Sogh" in it, and "Duj", but that's about it).  "pa'taH" doesn't make any
sense to me; "pa'" is a noun meaning "room" or a slightly special noun
meaning "there"; in neither case can it take the verb-suffix "-taH."  I
don't see what "targh" is doing either; the whole last sentence is puzzling
to me.  I can see "he's here!" at the end, I guess an oblique order to
force him forward?

>b'nera:  b'nera jIH, 'ej QanDuj'Sogh qIrIneS SutaI QIntar vI'oS.       
>mIghbe'vam boj vIqem.
>   (qIrI is dragged into the hall by her hair as she growls, claws and 
>spits not unlike a wild beast.)

Oh, are you sticking -neS onto names?  Well, I can accept that only as some
non-tlhIngan-Hol stuff, like the names themselves; by rights -neS is a
verb-suffix that goes only on verbs.  "mIghbe'vam" is a verb-noun
construct, something we are not told is productive in Klingon.  If you mean
"evil woman", use "be' mIgh."  It's especially troublesome with "be'" as
the noun, since "mIghbe'" looks like "is not evil" (though that's not
damning in itself, cf. ta'be' in Hamlet).  There are two main verbs in the
last sentence; I can't really see "boj" used adjectivally.  If you mean
"this nagging, evil woman", I'd suggest "boj[taH]bogh be' mIgh vIqem".

>   (after a fashion)
>yoj:  mulaQ puQlod, yoj jIH, 'e' be'vam 'Iprar jIghoS.

What's the "'e'" doing there?  I see "*'Iprar" as an attempt to compound
"'Ip" (swear (v) or oath (n)) with "rar" (connect (v)), but that's a
noun-verb compound, which we don't do, and even granted that I don't really
understand what it is.  Nor how it functions in the sentence; if it's the
object of "ghoS" you should use "vIghoS."  But "entering an oath" sounds
idiomatic to me, and possibly peculiar to English.  Maybe...

"yoj jIH, mulaQ puqloD, 'ej mararchuq be'vam jIH je 'e' vI'Iprup"

or

"... 'ej mararchuqmeH be'vam jIH je jI'Iprup"

"I am yoj, mulaQ's son, and I am ready to swear that this woman and I
are/be connected to one another" or "...so that this woman and I..."

The second one is probably better.  Not sure if "rar" is a good verb.

>qIrI:  qorDu'vo' QIntar, qIrI jIH, 'e' loDvam 'Iprar jIghoS.

I'd order it "QIntar qorDu' qIrI jIH" (or after KGT, "matay' QIntar qorDu'
jIH je"); my comments above apply here too.

>Qar'Deth:  yIjatlh
>(What follows is my closest guess to the lines out of House of Quark.)

This could be "say it!" but it sounds more like "speak!" to the two of
them, so it should be "pejatlh".

>gho 'e' ve' lu'cha va'be' tu'va' rIlu'  (repeated by yoj)
>
>gho 'e' ve' lu'cha wa'be' moq'a' rIchoS   (repeated by qIrI)

I'll take your word for it.

>roS malu'qa'

And this.

All in all, don't be too discouraged.  You definitely tried to get the
grammar right and the word-order right and recasted things in Klingon terms
and structures.  But I think some of the fine-tuning needed work.

~mark

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