tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed May 14 15:22:42 1997
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RE: KLBC One of my first tanslations
- From: "David Trimboli" <[email protected]>
- Subject: RE: KLBC One of my first tanslations
- Date: Wed, 14 May 97 00:20:27 UT
[email protected] on behalf of Rolando Coto wrote:
> I'm really having a lot of trouble with my grammar, and I'm trying to
> learn by translating stuff.
Instead of translating, may I suggest that you first concentrate on saying
your own thoughts. Translating others' ideas starts you off on the wrong
foot: you're translating their words, not ideas.
> A few days ago, I went into a little project of
> translating a few sentences from spanish to Klingon, and this is what I
> got. I know errors will appear everywhere in text, but, that's what we are
> all here for. I will gratefully accept any corrections you can send me.
>
> ===First, the original translation from spanish to english:
Ack! Double translations!
> Laws for question-answering, written by Claudia.
>
> 1) Be aware of what happens in the world, no let yourself be manipulated
> by the press' opinion, be objective, not subjective on what you say. Error
> #1: speak a lot and say very little.
>
> 2) You have to be calm and relaxed, think that you're talking to someone
> you know, withouth losing the respect for them, defend your ideas, give
> opinions "in favor" and "against" {sp: d� pros y contras} the situation
> you're proposing, be critic but have an open mind and offer solutions.
>
> 3) Don't answer anything you don't know, and the most important thing:
> ONLY ANSWER WHAT YOU'RE ASKED.
>
> ===Then, the "adaptation" for klingon translation form english. I had to
> analyze throughly some of the concepts, like "objectiveness", "feelings",
> "critic". Check them out:
>
> Laws to answer the questionings, written by Claudia for me
>
> 1) You need to know the things happening on Earth, don't allow your ideas
> to be influenced by the opinions of any other peoples, while you speak
> don't listen to the voices of your soul {be objective, feelings}. Error #1:
> while you say many trivial words you say no important ideas.
>
> 2) You need to be calm and you need to be relaxed, you need to think you
> are speaking with someone you have already met for the first time, you
> clearly have to respect them!, you must defend your ideas!, say things with
> the intention that they defend and/our attack your words, protect your
> ideas {critic} but be prepared for opening your mind yu new ideas and be
> ready to answer new problems.
>
> 3) Don't answer what you don't know and the most important thing of all,
> ONLY ANSWER THOSE THINGS THEY ASK YOU!
>
> ===Finally, my Klingon translation. Again, I know it's full of mistakes.
> That's why I'm posting it. For you people to correct it and for me to
> learn:
>
> yu'ghachmey Dajang chutmey,
"Laws for question-answering." This is a noun phrase in English, and probably
Spanish, too (you didn't send the Spanish original, but I *can* read some
Spanish), but there's no reason that you have to *translate* it as a noun
phrase. Especially since Klingon does not have nouns for "question" or
"answer," but it does have them as verbs. You've made a good attempt, though
you got a few things wrong.
Okrand has explained to us in a HolQeD interview that when you use the verb
suffix {-ghach} without an intervening verb suffix, the word becomes highly
marked. It would be like me describing the act of giving something as
"giveation." It's grammatically correct, but it looks ridiculous, and any
Klingons who hear you say such a thing will instantly recognize you as a
tourist.
This rule has caused a lot of people to add *any* suffix to a verb, just so
they can add {-ghach} to it. It is the list's general opinion that doing this
sort of thing is highly undesirable; you'd just be doing it to match the
English. (Besides, Okrand apparently only invented the suffix as a cave-in to
the TV show.)
If you *did* want to say "laws to answer," you'd need a {-meH} clause. See
TKD section 6.2.4. {jangmeH chutmey}. Actually, I don't see why you need to
even mention "questionings." "Laws for answering" seems to cover it for me.
> jIHvaD ghItlhta' tlhaw'DIya
It is the list's policy not to transliterate names (though transliteration may
take place in other media; your {tlhaw'DIya} is just like Much Ado's
{tlhaw'DIyo}. And when you *do* use a name, mark it with something like
asterisks: *Claudia*.
> 1) tera'Daq qaStaH Doch 'e' DaSovnIS,
"You need to know that things are happening on Earth." Why not use the word
{qo'} "world, realm"? It seems suited to what you're trying to say.
Things that happen are better described in Klingon as {wanI'mey} "events" than
as {Dochmey} "things."
Actually, I like this as a command better, as it was in the English.
{bISovnIS} "you need to know" ends up much like {yISov} "know!" anyway.
Take a look at TKD section 6.2.3 on relative clauses. {-bogh} is a terribly
useful suffix; I recommend you study it. With it we can say
qo'Daq qaStaHbogh wanI'mey tISov
Know the events which are occurring in the world.
Let's make each of these a single sentence. The last thing we need is to
comma splice this stuff.
> qechmeylIj SIgh vay'pu' vuDmey 'e'
> Dachaw'Qo',
Not bad. Since this is a command, "Don't permit that," you need the {yI-}
prefix, and not the {Da-} prefix.
Still, you've lost a lot from the original sentence. What happened to the
press? Or are you simply referring to popular opinion? This is why it's
better to speak your own thoughts rather than just translating someone else's:
you know exactly what you mean, but you may not be sure of someone else's
intentions.
> bIjatlhtaHvIS qa'HotghachlIj DaqImQo'.
Huh? "While you speak you refuse to pay attention your spirit-feel-ation."
You need an imperative verb prefix, and you've got another marked {-ghach}
verb.
First off, you originally intended to say "Don't listen to the voices of your
soul." Actually, this is a completely un-Klingon thing to say. One of their
proverbs is {'IwlIj ghogh yIQoy} "Listen to the voice of your blood."
Still, this doesn't mean that one can't say it. However, we don't have the
words "objective" and "subjective," and I can't think of any quick way to say
it this way. I can think of lots of ideas though.
Here's one:
bIjatlhtaHvIS qechmey'e' neH SIghpu'be'bogh latlhpu' tIjatlh.
While you are speaking, speak only ideas which others have not influenced.
Or course, this is a whole lot like the previous sentence, but that is hardly
surprising: it's the same idea. If you have any problems with this sentence,
let me know.
> Qagh wa': mu' ram law'
> bIjatlhtaHvIS qech potlh bIjatlhbe'.
You goofed on the verb prefixes again. Perhaps you should reread the
beginning of section 4 of TKD. Since "many trivial words" and "important
ideas" are the objects, you need to look on the chart on page 33 for
"third-person plural object." You need {Da-}, not {bI-}.
TKD doesn't tell us that we may use multiple verbs as adjectives, and I'm
inclined not to do so unless we see canon evidence of this. That's easily
remedied, however, by using relative clauses:
rambogh mu'mey law'
many trivial ideas
many ideas which are trivial
So,
rambogh mu'mey law' Dajatlh
you are saying many trivial words
"Important ideas." It turns out that {potlh} is also a noun meaning
"something important." You *might* consider using just {potlh}, rather than
{qechmey potlh}, but it's not wrong.
qechmey potlh Dajatlhbe'
You don't say important ideas.
or
potlhmey Dajatlhbe'
You don't say important things.
I'm not going to use {-vIS} to join these, though. The idea here is not
really one of simultaneity; it's suitable for "but." {'a} or {'ach}.
rambogh mu'mey law' Dajatlh 'ach potlhmey Dajatlhbe'.
You say many trivial words, but you do not say important things.
Actually, I'd probably find a different way entirely to say this. Something
like,
pe'vIl jatlh 'ach potlhmey jatlhbe'
He speaks forcefully, but doesn't say anything important.
Correct for person of sentence.
> 2) bIjotnIS 'ej bIleSnIS,
Again, the better Klingon way to say this would be to issue commands. {yIjot}
{yIleS}.
> SoH DuqImlu'ta' Dajatlh DaQubnIS,
Ugh. Let's see. You don't want the indefinite subject on {qIH} (you meant
{qIH}, right?). The subject *is* specific: it's going to be the object of the
main sentence! Even if you could use it, you are not allowed to use the {Du-}
suffix with it; see TKD 4.2.5. And you seem to have forgotten the {-bogh}.
Also, I don't think you mean {-ta'}: you aren't talking about going out and
meeting someone for the first time intentionally.
You are not speaking this person, you're speaking *to* this person. This is
not {-Daq}, this is {-vaD}. There's some question as to whether you can use a
Type 5 noun suffix besides {-'e'} on a noun is a relative clause, but it may
just be possible.
vay'vaD DaqIHpu'bogh DajatlhtaH
You are speaking to someone whom you have met before.
Again, make the advice a command:
vay'vaD DaqIHpu'bogh DajatlhtaH 'e' yIQub
Think that you are speaking to someone whom you have met before.
> tIvuvchu',
Ah! Now you are using commands! Good!
> qechmeylIj tIHub,
Good.
> mu'meylIjvaD HIv qoj Hub 'e' Dochmey Dajatlh,
Ugh. There are so many problems here that it would probably be easier to
start from scratch! I can point out a few:
Instead of using a relative clause as you intended ("things which defend") you
tried to use {'e'}. {'e'} is always the object of a sentence, which means
that {Dochmey} cannot also be the object of the sentence. {'e'} is not the
relative clause. {'e'} refers to the previous sentence. See TKD 6.2.5.
You'd need something closer to {HIvbogh qoj Hubbogh}.
Personally, I don't think it's important to say more than
Hoch vuDmeylIj tIjatlh
Say all of your opinions.
> vuDlIj
> bIQan
"Be critical" does not mean "protect your ideas." It means "be strict in your
judgement of the truth." (By the way, you've goofed on the verb prefix again:
{vuDlIj yIQan} or {vuDlIj tIQan}.)
> 'ach qechmeyvaD chu' yablIj bIpoSmoHrup
When you use Type 5 noun suffixes on nouns which are modified by verbs
adjectivally, the Type 5 suffix always goes on the verb. {qechmey chu'vaD}
"for new ideas."
Fix the prefix and order the suffixes: {yIpoSbeHmoH}. {-beH}, because you
causing your brain to be ready, you're not preparing yourself.
"Open your mind" is really a metaphor, which might not act the same way in
Klingon. Klingons may wonder if you have a hole in your head.
How about
qechmey chu' tIlajrup
Be ready to accept new ideas.
> 'ej sengmey chu' bIjangrup.
Hmmm . . . I wonder if {Seng} works for "problem" like this. Even if it does,
are you really "answering" the problem? Did it ask you something?
This sounds like something more basic in Klingon: {reH yIvangrup} "Always be
ready to act," or just simply "Be prepared."
> 3) SoH DaSovbe' Dochmey 'e' DajangQo'
Again, you have mistakenly used {'e'} instead of {-bogh}. You don't "know"
things, you pick them up, look at them, but you don't "know" them. You're
overusing {Doch}.
bISovbe'chugh yIjangQo'
If you don't know, don't answer.
> 'ej Doch potlh law' Hoch potlh puS:
> neH Dochmeyvetlh nItlhobbogh 'e' tIjangqu'.
I don't like the law'/puS you've got here, but it's not wrong. It's just too
vauge and indirect.
{neH} is a special adverbial which always comes *after* the word its
modifying!
Again, this is dependent on having lots of nouns for "question" or "answer,"
or "thing." I'd rather see this as verbs:
nIyu'chugh yIjang. nIyu'be'chugh yIjangQo'.
If they ask you, answer. If they don't ask you, don't answer.
> Please, help me with it, I will like to know what did I miss. Qapla'!
You're off to a very good start. However, you should start a little smaller.
It's tough for me to correct something this big, especially when it's not even
your own words.
I suggest you start a conversation with someone. Talk about anything you
like, but make it simple. Post it under KLBC, and I'll help you out with the
grammar.
--
SuStel
Beginners' Grammarian
Stardate 97366.2