tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Mar 02 22:15:45 1997

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RE: qechmeywIj law'qu' vIlab

jatlh taD:

>    rut De'wI'wIj vIlo'laHbe'mo', tlhIngan Hol qechmeywIj vIlabmeH bIH
> vIqontaH.  bIH DIja'chuqmeH 'ej SuQubchu'meH neH qechmeyvam vIQub - vItbej
> bIH 'e' vIjatlhbe'qu'. DaH tlhIHvaD qechmey puS vIlab. tugh latlhmey vIlab
> je.

There's some controversy in your paragraph above, but the definitely wrong 
thing is the {'e'} before {vIjatlhbe'qu'}.  Verbs of saying like {jatlh} never 
use {'e'}.

> 1) Noun-noun nouns vs. Verb-noun nouns:
>    Some Klingonists have suggested that particular verbs, while not stated
> directly in TKD, are also nouns. This assumption is based on the fact that
> they appear first in several complex nouns, and so are considered to be the
> 1st noun in a noun-noun compound. [...]
>    I believe that another explanation of these words could be that
> they are abbreviations for longer phrases, which have been shortened over
> time, just as <qa'meH> (replacement) has been shortened from <quvqa'meH>. 
[...]

I tend to agree with you on this point.  I don't know for certain the 
derivation of these words, but I too came up with {QongmeH Daq}.

> 2) <bIH> vs. <chaH>
>    <bIH> refers to they, when "they" are non-speakers.  <chaH> refers to
> they, when "they" are capable of speaking. But what is used when "they"
> refers to both speakers & non-speakers?

This is a question we've encountered before.  There is no answer yet.

> 3) Variation on "Live Long & Prosper"
>    Just an observation: The 2-hour long Star Trek 25th anniversary special 
on
> t.v. (it was on more than 5 years ago, so you might not remember. I have it
> on tape, but I think it may also be in the KLI archives) was hosted by
> William Shatner & Leonard Nimoy.  Because ST:VI TUC was coming out then,
> there were some segments on the special about the movie.
>    At one point, Nimoy introduces a brief section of the show about Klingon
> by saying that the Klingon way of saying "Live long & prosper"  is <yItaH 
'ej
> yIcheptaH.> A brief interview with Marc Okrand follows, where Marc talks
> about how he had to invent the verb <taH.> The accuracy of Nimoy's grammar &
> pronunciation when he says <yItaH 'ej yIcheptaH,> as well as the fact that
> the creators of the program actually came in contact with Okrand, suggests 
to
> me that Okrand created this phrase and is therefore valid tlhIngan Hol 
canon.
> Of course, the LLAP translation that we've also been given, <yIn nI'
> Daghajjaj 'ej bIchepjaj>, is also valid, although not as verb-oriented as
> most Klingon translations.

Wow!  You're right!  I haven't watched the special since I learned the {yIn 
nI'} sentence!  You have correctly transcribed what Nimoy says.  And there's 
NO WAY he would've read TKD himself to get it right.  Excellent!  Now I don't 
have to use only one form for "Live long and prosper" (not that I say it very 
often).  I can say it however I like without getting "That's not canon!" 
shouted at me!  :)

> 4) Pronunciation of  & <egh>
>    In TKD, we are told that I (uppercase i) is sometimes pronounced like the
> "eee" in zucchini. Although we have no rules for when to do this, I have
> noticed some words that are pronounced this way. They could be words that 
are
> always pronounced this way, or perhaps the pronunciation depends on the
> context: [...]

Yeah, there's no good way to tell.

>    cha'DIch - On ST:TNG, this has been pronounced "chah-deeech." I don't 
know
> if Okrand coached the actors in these episodes, so isn't definitely canon
> pronunciation.

I doubt he did; he would've put glottal stops in their words.  And besides, 
several words in the Addendum seem to come from the first episode this word 
appears in ("Sins of the Father").  I can remember {ghojmoq} and {meqba'} 
offhand.  I'm sure Okrand just heard these words and retrofitted them into the 
dictionary.  Rather like he has done with {parmaq} on MSN.

>    bIj - In the ST interactive VCR boardgame "A Klingon Challenge," Kavok
> (the same actor who plays Gowron) pronounces this as "beeedj." However, 
based
> on the rest of the tlhIngan Hol used in this game, Okrand probably didn't
> coach him. [...]

I never did get to play this.  Well, Okrand apparently coached Robert O'Reilly 
through the introduction of the Star Trek: Klingon CD intro, but that's 
virtually unintelligible.

>    bIr - In PK, this is pronounced like "beer."  Note that <rut bIr> ("it is
> sometimes cold") sounds like "Root beer."

{{:-D          (Haghbogh tlhIngan}

> Another thing that I've noticed about pronunciation is that Okrand sometimes
> says <*eygh> for the sound <egh.> I may just be hearing this wrong, so
> someone should confirm or disprove this: [...]

Yes, he says this sometimes.

> 5) <ghaj>
>    [...] Speaking of <ghaj>: Because the secrecy proverb <Hov ghajbe'bogh 
ram rur
> pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj> doesn't use the noun suffix <'e'>, it can also be
> translated as "A secret that a day doesn't have resembles a star that a 
night
> doesn't have."

This sentence was constructed before Okrand agreed that {-'e'} could be used 
to disambiguate the head noun of a relative clause.  Otherwise, context should 
tell.  And with a ritualized sentence like this, you KNOW what the speaker 
means!

> 6) <ro'qegh'Iwchab HInob>
>    The pronunciation of the phrase <ro'qegh'Iwchab HInob> must be different
> in most dialects, because Okrand says in PK that saying this phrase
> demonstrates that you know the current dialect. How it is different, 
however,
> I don't know.

I've often wondered.  Then again, if you manage to avoid saying "soj vets o 
nuq?" you're probably going to do all right.

> tlhonchaj chIljaj jaghpu'ra'

heh . . . vaj tlhonmey tu'lu', qar'a'?  {{:-)

-- 
SuStel
Beginners' Grammarian
Stardate 97169.6

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