tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Sep 29 17:11:46 1996

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(KLBC) Re: Greetings from another new student

At 01:56 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Niall Pagdin wrote:


Hello.  I'm trI'Qal, your snarling (well, you wouldn't expect a Klingon to
be FRIENDLY, would you?? {{:) ) neighborhood Beginner's Grammarian.  I am
here to correct the grammaitcal issues in your posts, and to answer any
questions you may have about grammar and stuff.

Please note I changed the subject-line for the post very slightly.  I will
send any explaination of this in a private letter to you after this one.  It
will also contain some general admin-type info for you, too.


>wejben tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom jIje'ta' 


Very nice first sentence!  The only error I can see is that you have
<jIje'ta'>, which has jI-, the prefix for "I, no object" on it, when you
clearly have an object:  <tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom>.  It should have been
<vIje'ta'>.

I've explained objects and how to find them many a time before, and I will
do it again if I have to... let me see how you did with the rest of this,
first, though...


>'ej QujmeH loQ vIghoj. 


Oh, nice!  Just two comments here:

1. Although I understood from context what the "it" was in <vIghoj>, it
might have been clearer if you said <tlhIngan Hol vIghoj>.  Either that, or
you have jI- and vI- backwards (common thing to do...).

2. You correctly realized that the way to translate an English infinitive to
Klingon is to use -meH.  However, you still need a very prefix on the verb!
What you are really trying to say is "I learned KLingon slightly in order
that I play a game".  If you think of your -meH phrases this way, you will
always remember that prefix, and always know what it should be:

        'ej jIQujmeH loQ vIghoj.

Hm... after re-reading the section onpurpose clauses, I am not sure if the
<loQ> should go beofre the -meH phrase, or after it.  Comments?


>ghomvam loQ  poHvaD jIlaDta' 


This looks like you are trying to say "I read this list slightly for a
time".  There are a couple of problems with this.  First, it does look like
you have having troubles finding the object of a sentence.  The subject of a
sentence answers the question "Who/what <verbs>?"  In this case, you would
ask "Who is reading?" to get the subject:  "I".  The direct object of a
sentence answers the question "who/what is <subject> <verb>ing?"; in this
case, "Who or what am I reading?"  Answer:  "this list", which you rendered
as <ghomvam>.  The object has to come just before the verb:

        loQ poHvaD ghomvam jIlaDta'.

Again, you have an object "this list", so your verb prefix needs to refect
that.  It should be vI-:

        loQ poHvaD ghomvam vIlaDta'.

Finally, you have mis-used -vaD.  -vaD means "for" in the sense of "intended
for", meaning that the noun to which it is attached is the recipient of the
verb.  It is primarily used for indirect objects.  You seem to mean "for a
time" as in, "while a time occurred", which you have to use -taHvIS on the
verb <qaS>:

        qaStaHvIS poH nI'Ha', loQ ghomvam vIlaDta'.

Please also note that I added <nI'Ha'>, which means "short (not lengthy)" to
show that you were talking about a small piece of time, not ALL of time.

It occurs to me that you may have meant <loQ> to modify <poHvaD> this way;
that doesn't work, because <loQ> is an adverbial, and can ONLY modify the
*verb* of the sentence.


>'ej ghotpu' naDev Dung mu'Itlh jIlegh.


Oh, boy.  There are a LOT of errors in here, part of which I think stem from
you trying to use the (idiomatic?) expression "advance above".  <Dung> is a
physical location--it is the physical area above an object.  It doea NOT
mean "to go into the area above" or just "above".  You also tried to use
<'Itlh> with the object "me"--that translates "they be advanced me".  That
is as incorrect in Klingon as it is in English.  You also are trying to do a
sentence as object with "I see that ...".

Why not just recast this to "I see that people here are more advanced than I":

        naDev ghotpu' 'Itlh law' jIH 'Itlh puS 'e' vIlegh.

If you are wondering where I got this from, I used the compartive structure
on pages 70-71, and the last two words make that whole comparateive an
object of the setnence "I see that ...".  Sentence as object is described on
pages 65-67

I normally would go into detail how I got this, but I got is mostly by just
re-cating what you said, and then using a much more appropriate "tool".  {{:(


>chuq nI' jIlengnIS vISovchu'taH 


<vIlengnIS>:  you have an object "lengthy distance".  What you have here is
a sentence-as-object (SAO), and you are mission one word to make it correct:
<'e'>.  <'e'> is the pronoun which tells the reader/listening that this IS a
SAO, and it goes between the two sentences, in the object position of the
second sentence.  What you have here are really TWO sentences:  "I need to
travel a length distance; I know that (whole previous sentence)".  <'e'>
means "that (whole previous sentence)", and connects the two... again, this
is explained on pages 65-67:

        chup nI' vIlengnIS 'e' vISovchu'taH

Finally, there is an itty-bitty obscure rule that says that you can't have a
type 7, so you can't have -taH on there:

        chup nI' vIlengnIS 'e' vISovchu'.

Again, this may be idiomatic/slang/metaphorical; I don't know if Klingons
talk about how "far" they must learn.  Perhaps you could have summed this up
with a much simpler:

        jIghojnIStaH 'e' vISovchu'
        "I know that I need to coninuously learn".


>'ej ghomvam paw mutlhej vInejqu'.


I'm a bit confused.  "I *search* for them to accompany me arrive this group"???

Huh???

Even with your English, I am not sure precisely what you are trying to say
here.  I CAN tell you that you have mis-used <nej>; it means to look for
soemthing, as in to SEARCH for it.  It does NOT mean to "look forward
towards <an event occuring>".  Carefule, careful, careful, CAREFUL!  I'm
really not sure what <tlhej> is doing in there at all, unless you are trying
to go for the "with the help of people on this list".

At this point, I am going to have to something I don't like to say to new
people:  slow down.  You are trying to jump in and translate big,
complicated sentences, and, until you get some of the basic grammar down a
bit better, you are not going to be understood.  {{:(  As someone once said,
you can't start translating the Bible, until you can talk about "Dick and
Jane" first (i.e., "See Dick. See Jane.  See Dick and Jane...").  I don't
think you need to go all THAT far back, but it does look like you are trying
to bite off more than you can chew...


>rIn not vInubtaH.


Again, this is a sentence as object, and I think you bit off mroe than you
can chew.  <nub> means "to be suspect", not "to suspect (someone)".

I always feel helpless when I get a post like this.  You obviously made a
strong effort, and you equally obviously are willing to meet the challenge
of "catching up" to the skill-level of many other people here.  Your first
sentence or two weren't that bad--probably because they were much simpler.
When you get the next letter which I will be sending you describing the
KLBC, you will see that one of my requests is that you try to say sIMPLE
things:  tell me about your day, describe you favourite pet--but keep your
sentences "child-like" to start.  Like any other language, until you can say
simple things, it will be very, very difficult for you to say anything more
complicated.

I really hope that you will try again.  I also hope that I am better able to
help you with what you send...


>-ghojwI'
>
>--=o0o=--
>
>[As suggested I have tried to introduce myself in Klingon. I have never tried 
>to do anything as complex as this so I guess I will probably be well off the 
>track. I look forward to the corrections but please explain them in Terran as 
>well or I will be really lost!


The Grammarians generally DO give their correction in English, except for
one rather unforgettable month many a year ago when HoD Qanqor, I think then
the ONLY Grammarian, protested the high-number of English posts, and posted
EVERYTHING in Klingon...


>-Niall


--tQ


>PS How do I get hold of the FAQ? To save me asking them all!]


It should have been mailed to you automatically when you subscribed to the
list.  If you deleted that mail already, you can get another copy by sending
mail to [email protected] with no subjectline and the following as the body
of your text:

        help

If that doesn't work, send private email to [email protected] asking for it,
and I will forward you a copy.


--tQ


---
HoD trI'Qal, tlhIngan wo' Duj lIy So' ra'wI'
Captain T'rkal, Commander IKV Hidden Comet (Klingon speaker and net junkie!)
HaghtaHbogh tlhIngan yIvoqQo'!  toH... qatlh HaghtaH Qanqor HoD???
monlI'bogh tlhInganbe' yIvoqQo'!  SoHvaD monlI' trI'Qal...

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