tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon May 29 01:37:55 1995

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Re: Beginner Help: Tolkien

yoDtargh wrote:
> You don't need to form compound words unless you are creating a separate new 
> word.  {chalbIngDaq} and {jelvngnanche'wI'} would be like saying 
> "underthesky" and "elvenrulers" in English.

Khalic (Karl Dyson) wrote:
> I was thinking that seperating them would cause a noun-noun possessor-possed
> rule to apply and it didn't make sense to me..

Compound words still have the possessor-possessed meaning.  Since you are
trying to avoid the "noun's noun" meaning when you say "Elven Kings," you
apparently intend to use "Elven" as an adjective.  BZZZT!  There's no such
thing as an adjective in tlhIngan Hol.  However, this phrase does work just
fine as a noun-noun phrase, because "Elves' Kings" or "Kings of the Elves"
is an acceptable translation.

> Is there anything wrong with not using complete gramatical sentences.. what
> I mean is, can you get away with it?

In casual speech, you can probably manage to use partial phrases in answer
to specific questions, or when the main thrust of the unspoken sentence
is clear from context.  Like when using a phrase like this.  In formal
discussion, the kind that is common in a forum like this one, it's best to
avoid saying things in a manner that makes it harder for people to understand
you.  Make your sentences as simple and complete as you can, and you will
make many of the readers of this list very happy.

If you want to translate poetry (or, better, actually CREATE some), then
you'll likely have to deal with slightly bent grammatical rules.  One of
the recent lengthy discussions here focused on trying to translate "E pluribus
unum."  This is a weird phrase, because it has no explicit verb AND because
it has such a nebulous subject.  The "best" translations had to put the
subject and verb in explicitly.

[About creating new words (phonologically correct or not)...]
> Well I didn't know whether it was okay and I didn't think it mattered since
> I was only attempting the translation for practice.

{wejpuH!}  If you're going to practice something, it's important not to
practice doing it wrong!  It matters.  Trust me.

Rule #1:  If you make up a word, mark it as special.
          ~Dwarghnganjawpu' doesn't follow the rules and cannot be looked
          up.  If you don't flag it as a non-word, others will waste time
          trying  to find it in the dictionary.  They will be irritated.

Rule #2:  Don't make up words!
          Person or place names are a commonly accepted exception, especially
          when they can be phonetically copied without distortion.  ~'aruba
          is probably not going to get many complaints.  ~'yISra'el and ~parIy
          are slightly more problematic, since many readers of this list don't
          necessarily use the "native" pronunciation of Israel and Paris.

Rule #3:  Marc Okrand can "make" new words.
          In the fictional realm we often pretend to inhabit, he is the one
          who has access to the "real" language, and he is the one doing
          research to "discover" words.  HolQeD (the journal of the Klingon
          Language Institute) has published lists of such new words, some
          of which are not in the current edition of The Klingon Dictionary.  

My preference is to find creative ways to express the meaning of a word
that does not appear in the dictionary.  The whole point of my participation
in this list is NOT to be able to translate existing works, but to use the
tools I have in order to say things that I want to say AND to have those
things be understood by others.  {chorgh'uSghew} for "spider" is concise
(and cute :-), but if I really HAD to be completely clear, I'd call it a
{chorgh 'uS ghajbogh ghew}.

Your homework assignment for this week is to translate the sentence
"Yesterday I studied at the library."  :-)

-- ghunchu'wI'


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