tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed May 17 15:07:43 1995
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Re: Beginner Help: Tolkien
On Wed, 17 May 1995, Karl Dyson wrote:
> Sorry if this should have a special prefix in the subject line, but I don't
> know it.
Anytime you want help from the Beginners' Grammarian, you can put "KLBC"
in the subject line.
> I wanted to translate the phrase
> "Three Rings For The Elven Kings Under The Sky"
> "Seven For The Dwarf-Lords In Their Halls Of Stone"
> "Nine For Mortal Men Doomed To Die"
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Three rings for the elven kings under the sky"
> Or should that be Elven Klings? :)
>
> I came up with
> <chalbIngDaQ jelvnganche'wIpu'vaD wej Qebmey>
>
> <chalbIngDaQ> - area under sky
"Under the sky" would be {chal bIngDaq}.
> <jelvnganche'wIpu'vaD> I invented "jelvngan" to mean Elven, and used a
> compound noun with che'wI - Elevn rulers??
{jelv} seems to violate Klingon phonological rules - we don't see final
consonant clusters like "lv". Also, since {ngan} means "inhabitant",
{jelvngan} would seem to mean "an inhabitant of 'jelv'".
You don't need to form compound words unless you are creating a separate new
word. {chalbIngDaq} and {jelvngnanche'wI'} would be like saying
"underthesky" and "elvenrulers" in English.
Maybe a Tolkien scholar can confirm this, but I think the word for elf
in Quenya is "elda", so perhaps you could use {*'elda'pu' che'wI'pu'}
(the rulers of the Elves).
Also there is nothing to indicate what rings and elven kings are doing
"under the sky". This is the tricky part of translating poems, they
play fast and loose with the language and the meaning may get lost in
translation.
I would use: chal bIngDaq taHbogh *'elda'pu' che'wI'pu'vaD wej Qeb.
Note that, like the original, this is not a grammatically complete
sentence: it has no verb. If you wanted a complete sentece, you could
end it with something like {tu'lu'} or {chenmoHta' *Sawron}.
> <wej Qebmey> - I'm fairly confident that this bit is right!?!
When using numbers, plural suffixes are not needed, so you can simply say
{wej Qeb}.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of stone"
> <naghvaSchajDaq Dwarghnganjawpu'vaD Soch>
> <naghvaSmeychajDaq> - compund noun stone-hall +plural +their +in
Here, I think the compound word "stonehall" might work okay but you could
also say {nagh vaSmeychajDaq}.
> <Dwarghnganjawpu'VaD> - again, I made up a word.. I didn't want to use
> "very small men" coz I assumed that Tolkien was
> meaning a more fantasy based people.. then theres
> another compound noun.. dwarf-lords.
Here, "dw" is another example of an initial consonant cluster which does not
not appear in Klingon. Again, you don't need a compound word here.
I think the Dwarves called themselves "Khazad" (Tolkien experts?), so you
might say {*HaSaDpu' jawpu'vaD}.
> <Soch> - can I get away with just saying Seven for the Dwarf-etc.???
Yes, numbers can be used by themselves. {Soch}, when used by itself, can
mean "seven (of them)".
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Nine for mortal men doomed to die"
>
> Okay, I admit defeat here..
>
> I decided to try and say
> Nine for terans whom are doomed to die..
> but couldn't manage that either..
> I could only get <Hut teragnanpu'vaDbogh>.. Is this okay, I put the Hut
> first because I had to use bogh.
{-bogh} is a verb prefix and doesn't belong here. {tera'ngan} means
"Terran" and can refer to any being inhabiting that planet. If you assume
that "Terra" is the same planet as Middle-Earth, {tera'ngan} could refer
to not only men, but elves, dwarves, hobbits, orcs, ents, etc. Since you
are referring to "men" as a species, you would use {Human}.
I would say: {Humanpu' jubbe'vaD Hut} or {HeghlaHbogh Humanpu'vaD Hut}.
> --Khalic--
yoDtargh