tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 30 13:12:43 1994
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Re: please pay some respect to lingual minorities
- From: [email protected] (Sami Laitala)
- Subject: Re: please pay some respect to lingual minorities
- Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 23:12:08 +0200
> The original text written by:
> [email protected] (Sami Laitala)
>> After subscribing TLHINGAN-HOL, I received an
>> interesting file. I'd like to comment on a few lines
>> in it that annoyed me.
>>
>> There are basically two kinds of postings that will <
>> appear on this list: <
>> <
>> - Messages about anything, written in Klingon <
>> - Messages about Klingon, written in English <
------------------------------------
johnny%[email protected]
(Johnny Wayne Jr Rittimann) replied:
! I think that it would be a fair assumption that most of
! the people that know Klingon do in fact speak English,
SL: Is that a valid reason to ban all the others...?
! since all the information (That I know of -- and I admit
! I'm no expert) on Klingon is in English.
SL: Thus, all Klingon learners are required to learn English in
order to have access to Klingon texts. You're obviously an
English speaker and you probably didn't get my point at all.
You can't imagine what it feels like to be a native speaker
of a minority language. You have virtually everything
available in your own native language, but if *I* want to
learn any other language than the usual dominating European
languages I have to be able to learn everything through a
foreign language. I'm learning Welsh through English. To
learn small Finno-Ugrian languages I would have to do it in
Russian. I'd like to learn Basque, but in order to do that I
ought to learn Spanish first -- I have to do it all by myself
unless I find a tutor. (Anybody, please, contact me if you
can help in any way).
! Whether or not that is true, if more than one base language
! is used in a list like this would lead to disscussions within
! each language group and probably not inter-lingually. I beleive
! the result would be several lists within this one list.
SL: How come?! Miten niin?! [should the latter expression cause
this reply to be separated into several replies? Is it really
so big trouble to pick up the one you can understand?]
! Perhaps it would be better to have seperate lists for
! other languages. I know that sounds Xenophobic, but it's
! better than having your mailbox filled with discussions
! about Klingon in French...
SL: Why should there be separated lists? People on one list would
miss the stuff on another... And if you had separate lists,
then why would you subscribe those lists you don't want to
read. I can't follow you.
! On the other hand, I think having other languages besides
! English and Klingon on the list wouldn't be so bad at first.
SL: That's exactly the point. I never meant that other languages
should *replace* English. No! Never! I strongly deny ever
having suggested anything like that. I just want to have a
chance to apply an example in another language alongside
English whenever it would present the structure of the
Klingon expression more accurately. For example Esperanto is
often terribly handy, for it is systematical and logical
unlike English which often lacks a definite meaning and
regularity.
! Of course, ANYONE could post in Klingon regardless of you
! native language. The trick is to learn Klingon :)
! maybe if we restrict the languages to Klingon and Swahili???
SL: I can't understand. Why should languages be *restricted* as
long as an English translation is included? It is that
attitude and nothing else that bothers me!
! ...yeah I know I spelled it wrong :)
SL: No you didn't.
! johnny
! ps. I'm fairly new to this list, so my comments are
! COMPLETELY my own and do not neccessarily reflect the views
! of the originators or the majority of this list.
-------------------------------
[email protected] ("Mark E. Shoulson") replied:
? Now, this list was (obviously) set up by English-speakers,
? and what's more, the Klingon Dictionary itself has not
? (to my knowledge) been translated into any other languages,
? which really limits the chances that anyone will do get
? involved in Klingon enough to want to join the list without
? enough English knowledge to get by (at least to read the
? dictionary).
SL: Ever crossed your mind you that TKD could be translated to
other languages? Shouldn't we offer help to non-English
speakers in their native language as much as it is possible
and not discredit them? Do we desire more people learning
Klingon or are we going to keep it within a small circle of
freaks?
? English was chosen as the language of choice for this
? list probably because the early members of the list were
? all English-speaking.
SL: "English was chosen" -- If they all were English speakers I
don't think they ever spent much time choosing a language. I
should say it's simply because the language was created for
an English-language movie by English-speakers. But now that
the language leads a life of its own, I can't see why people
shouldn't learn it in their native languages like they learn
other foreign languages.
SL: Don't tell me nobody's prohibiting other languages. If there
are two languages allowed, namely Klingon and English -- that
indicates (indirectly of course) that the others are not to
be used.
? Obviously, we'd prefer a language we can all understand as
who "we" ^^
? the language of discussion on this list. The only language
? for which we have proof that people interested in Klingon
? would know is English (as I said above, because that's the
SL: Are you trying to say that because the information about
Klingon is made available only in English it's imposiible
that speakers of other languages could be interested in it?
? only language you can get the dictionary in). I think that
? at the very least, if you post in a language other than
? Klingon or English, you should be expected to post a
? translation (or *very* detailed abstract) in one of those
? languages.
SL: Of course, that's exactly what I was trying to say...
? After all, it's one thing to post a short summary
? in English and expect people to work hard at the Klingon
? to get the full meaning; we're here to learn Klingon anyway.
? Or to post in English and make less-proficient speakers struggle
? to make sense of a long post. But given that English is the
? only language we know we all have at least partly in common, and
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ really...? c'mon...
? given the fact that many people here wouldn't have a clue where
? even to *start* given a Finnish message (assuming they even
? recognize it's Finnish), anything you write in Finnish and not
? stated in English or maybe Klingon, you have to assume a lot of
? people simply won't see, not even a little bit.
? Oh, and I think you'll find that a lot of the native
? English-speakers complain that the grammar arguments are
? hard to follow, with all the specialized terms you need to
? discuss them...
SL: I'm not surprised to hear that.
>>Having said all this I realize that it wasn't meant that way,
>>yet I feel offended by suggestion that my language isn't as
>>good means of communication as English...
>>my little remark is not meant to be taken too seriously
===================================
? That's likely legitimate; the implication is more that there
? are two languages in the world: Klingon and English.
? Maybe even just a quick sentence beforehand pointing out
? that the language of discourse on the list is English.
SL: In Star Trek movies we may assume Earth as English speaking,
but the reality is another thing... Besides I've never
questioned the status of the English language. I was merely
defending my right to use my native language whenever I want
to explain a grammatical point to my fellow countrymen.
I've been banging my head against the wall with English for
years, so it's not a problem to *me*. I was thinking about
those who would come after me - I know Klingon would be much
more popular language here in Finland, but English is a BIG
obstacle to many of the Finnish Trekkies. We have subtitles
in movies and TV series, thus it's quite possible here in
Finland to follow Star Trek without knowing a single word of
English.
A word about my experiences: I would gladly lend my books
from my private library (on various interesting topic that
one can't find in public libraries), but since about 90% of
is in English and it's only those few Finnish volumes that
people keep borrowing...
------------------------
[email protected] (Volker Tanger) replied:
>> This gives me an impression that only these languages are
>> allowed.
" They are the ones which make sense: everyone here knows
" (at least) a bit english. Everyone is interested in
" tlhingan-Hol.
SL: There's no use saying "English makes sense" to me. I've been
learning other languages through English, and in many
occasion the complicated lengthy explanations for English
speakers don't make any sense at all to me. I take a short
example: There's no definite article in Chinese. There's no
definite article in Finnish either. Thus, the whole thing
could be omitted, but... because I'm reading a book intended
to English speakers I have bore myself with lengthy
explanations of the lack of the definitive article, that only
confuse me... I'm just asking what sense does it make. I
realize we are learning "tlhingan-Hol and not Chinese here,
but it's still in English. 'A bit English' is certainly not
enough to participate in hair-splitting grammatical
conversation.
>> It would be a FAIR REQUEST to include an English translation
" YES. But that's doubled work.
SL: If I would like to add e.g. a Finnish translation alongside
English, whenever the structure of the expression happens to
be closer to Klingon equivalent than English, why I shouldn't
be allowed to do that, may I ask? I've been writing Finnish
lessons to some friends of mine and I'm using examples from
various languages when I'm explaining a grammatical point.
All of them occasionally miss an example of course, but in
general my method works fine. If I'm willing to do double
work why should it bother you, anyway?
>> [stuff deleted] Non-native English speakers
>> like myself can't necessary follow all the hair-splitting
>> argumentation on Klingon grammar.
" Then ask. I think, the English here should be kept simple,
" because there are several people on the list, to whom
" English is not the native language.
SL: Then ask... how arrogant! If we speak about grammar we must
use grammatical terms, must we not? If I keep asking, I just
keep complicated explanations one after another in a foreign
language instead of simple example in my own that would
immediately make things clear.
SL: If I asked you the meaning of the words 'xork', 'oqPP',
'pwmg' and 'qien' and you would answer: sure, their meanings
are: 'lot', 'match', 'order' and 'set'. I still wouldn't know
what the words mean, because each of those words have several
meanings, and even more possible translations.
" A suggestion how to deal with non-english/non-klingon
" languages: preceed the subject with !CAR-SHORTCUT!
" (e.g. !D! german / !F! french / !NL! dutch). But I still
" don't feel comfortable with the idea of lots of mails
" I can't understand (IMHO).
SL: So you want to separate different people in different groups.
You must be aware that they tried that in Germany once and
that experiment wasn't very successful.
If I write an example
[in Klingon] = [in English] = [In Finnish]
I can't understand how you can say you don't understand [in
Finnish] if you can read [in Klingon] or [in English]. If [in
English] is enough for you why can't you simply ignore [in
Finnish]?
" Qapla'
" Volker
--------------------------------------------
[email protected] (Bill Crim) replied:
# Since this list is originating in, and has most of its
# subscribers in the United States, I don't think it is
# at all unreasonable to require only Klingon/English postings.
^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^
SL: Why *ONLY* Klingon/English? Are you going to set Ku Klingon
Klan on me, if I provide a Finnish translation alongside
English?
# Granted, there are subscribers from other countries and
# differing languages, but it is courtesy when posting to
# a list in the US, about a show in the US, whose major users
# are in the US, that a little concideration should be granted
# on your part.
SL: I couldn't agree more. But how would you feel if you would
like to join a conversation on some Finnish list and somebody
would come and scold you and say no English is tolerated
here? I would welcome you to participate in any conversation
in a Finnish environment, even if you wouldn't speak a word
of Finnish.
>> Having said all this I realize that it wasn't meant that way,
>> yet I feel offended by suggestion that my language isn't as
>> good means of communication as English...
# No one has made any suggestion about whose language is better.
SL: Indeed, it's true. But when I'm travelling in an English
speaking country it's taken for granted that I speak English.
How about English speakers when they come to Finland? A great
majority expect Finns to speak English to them. So don't come
and say to me "No one has made any *suggestion*..." -- It's
no *suggestion*, to me it's *reality*.
# It was not implied, nor should you feel offended in any way.
SL: Don't worry, I'm not. I'm used to Anglo-American arrogance. I
just can't understand why English-speakers can't tolerate a
few words of a foreign language, considering that I have to
put up with English everywhere I go here in my own country.
# The stipulation about english is for the benefit of the
# majority of subscribers. You should feel no more slighted
# by this, that by the fact that Star Trek is in English, and
# not Finnish, French, or German.
SL: Yes! Exactly! For the *majority*! You are appealing
majority's right to bully the minority. Obviously you belong
to the *majority*, but I DON'T! You may be bigger than me,
but if you kick me, I'll bite your leg. As I said, Klingon
leads a live of its own outside the movie now, so I don't
accept Star Trek being English as a valid excuse here.
---------------------
[email protected] (David E G Sturm) replied:
& Sami:
& Please forgive our horrendous anglophonism....
& It is essentially a leftover from the early days
& when we were only an American phenomenon. Now that
& Klingon thru KLI membership is now international,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
& it is a relic which should indeed be amended to
& "Discussions or any conversation conducted in the
& Klingon language, or discussion *about* the Klingon
& language in local Terran languages, with an English text
& provided along with any other Terran language..."
SL: Thank you David. :) I'm glad somebody got the point. This is
quite what I wanted to hear.
& Sad reality is that English is becoming the language
& of the Internet (although some might argue it's binary :-).
SL: Don't lose hope David, there is a very active bunch of
Esperantists, Welsh speakers, ConLangers and of course as you
know, Klingon speakers, Finns are extremely active computer
users, we have plenty of stuff in Finnish here, In Israel
there are files and services in Hebrew...
& Another key factor is that the only dictionary provided
& so far is "English-Klingon, Klingon-English".
^^ ^^^ Yes! *SO FAR* means that things may change
& Quite an opportunity for those fluent in other languages
& to start the projects for other languages. Hmmm.
& "Finnish-Klingon, Klingon-Finnish". Sounds interesting,
& although the vowel structure of Klingon would be found
& *very* boring to natives of Suomi.... :-)
:) Hey, look at this ^^^^^ :)
SL: He is certainly not to be blamed of ignorance. I'm delighted
by your attitude. In fact I'm (slowly) working on a multi-
lingual dictionary data base. So far, there are columns in
Finnish, English, Welsh, Estonian, Hebrew, Esperanto,
Japanese, Chinese... <;) Klingon would be just one more
column.
--------------------------------------------
[email protected] (KLI Round Table Acct) replied:
% Your point is well taken, and your suggestion is a more
% than reasonable solution. I will bring it up with Eli
% myself and I suspect it will result in a prompt change of
% the info letter that goes out to new subscribers.
SL: I'm glad somebody here understands me and agrees with me.
>> I would like to see those lines changed into something
>> more respectful toward speakers of other languages.
% The only defense that I can offer is that all materials
% currently available about Klingon are written in English,
% both the canonical works such as TKD and generated
% materials such as HolQeD. I do appreciate your acknowledgement
% that the oversight in the info letter was not intended as
% a slur toward nonEnglish speakers. While I am not a big
% proponent of political correctness, I have to agree that the
% letter is a bit insensitive.
SL: Since you showed me tolerance I dare to say to you:
thank you very much
paljon kiitoksia
diolch o'r galon
suur ta"nu
dankon
tack sa% mycket
toda raba
doozo arigato
[the same in tlhIngan-Hol]
SL: For your kind words and positivity I'll grant everybody an
absolution.
>> Even though I can't understand a word of Klingon yet, it seems
>> to me that Klingon is agglutinative language like Finnish. (Is
>> it?) the idea alone gives me a thrill...
% Absolutely. Klingon is indeed an agglutinative language.
% And, given that you are a native speaker (presumably) of
% a similar language, we look forward to your own insights
% into Klingon as you become more familiar with the language
% and the technical jargon we use here.
SL: Indeed I am a native Finnish speaker.
I look forward to it too.
% Lawrence
SL: I just wanted to try your tolerance a bit - I think you can
accept me. I'm grateful to all of you who replied me
directly, the stuff you sent most most welcome. I'll return
to you later.
As you all have figured out by now, I am a devoted defender
of lingual minorities and if I get an impression that lingual
rights have been violated, you'll hear from me. Suomalaiset
pita"ka"a" puolianne!
Best wishes,
Sami.