tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 18 09:39:15 1994

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Re: jabbI'ID wa'DIch



According to [email protected]:
> 
> nuqneH
> jIlIH'eghmeH, Guido 'oH pongwIj'e'
> qaStaHvIS wej DIS tlhIngan Hol vIHaD

bIcheghpu'mo' jIQuchqu'.

> Recent developments on the list have inspired my return, much to the dismay
> of several people (no names, but trI'Qal, Holtej) (j/k).

Do not count ME among the dismayed. 

> Heghlaw'pu' Qanqor. taHjaj Qanqor qa'. lojtaHvIS Qanqor, val Dap qoj quv qoH.
> DevwI'na' ghaHpu' Qanqor'e'.
> 
> Right now we are probably witnessing Krankor's dream of what the list should
> become... 

Incredibly ironic.

> ...Sigh, there are just
> too many people speaking not-good-enough Klingon because we haven't made
> sufficient progress in teaching the language and getting more people
> genuinely interested in it. Maybe that's what drove Krankor off.

manID, 'ach ngeDbe' Qu'vam. Hol wIghojta' wIneHmo' Hol wIghoj.
chay' Hol ghoj neHbe'bogh chaH'e' wIghojmoH? We need to balance
our efforts to stimulate the interest of total initiates
without ignoring the need of the few advanced Klingonists we
have among us to become good enough to enjoy a conversation
with ~mark or Krankor WITHOUT the aid of a Universal Translator.

I thought we were doing that when we started KLBC, but the
result recently has been for the majority of those who can
write more than a paragraph without crumbling from exhaustion
to abandon the list to work on Hamlet or the MUSH or just to
beam away to parts unknown, leaving me nearly alone to respond
to all those "I think I've come up with a way to say..."
messages with my own "Maybe that works, but you might try..."
messages that apparently annoy you and perhaps have driven off
Krankor.

So, I snapped. jabbI'IDvam vIghItlhpa' naDev tlhIngan Hol neH
vIghItlhchoH. jabbI'IDvamDaq DIvI' Hol vIlo' je. qaDataH.

> ...At
> least he was the greatest leader this mailing list could have had, even if he
> was no linguist.

maQochbe'.

> Another question that I have is what makes a person interested in learning
> Klingon. Why do 99.44% of those who see TKD say something to the effect of,
> "Oh, how.. um, interesting," or, "Omygod, a KLINGON dictionary. Why the
> heck..."

qatlh qatlh Datlhob? ['e' tlhob charghwI' "Bud" SIchtaHvIS charghwI'...]

> Perhaps a good thing would be getting people interested in it who are not so
> much Trekkies. Every Trekkie would love a TKD, but none of them would ever
> learn it, even if they wanted to, unless they had an interest/talent in
> languages.

chaq jatlhmeH qochpu' poQ chaH. qoch vIneH, 'ach VirginiaDaq
qoch vIghajbe'. ('ej muSov Okrand neHbe' ghaH.)
 
> Maybe I'm just off key or off que or maybe I'm just ridiculously out of
> touch, but either way, I have an idea. It's very interesting because of
> recent developments involving FoxTrot. I came up with the idea for a Klingon
> comic strip a few days ago, and even have some preliminary sketches. I used
> to draw a comic strip for a local (very local) newspaper, but lost interest.
> I haven't cartooned in a while, but I would really enjoy writing a Klingon
> comic strip for HolQeD,...

pov qechvam.

> and maybe Proechel's qIb HeHDaq.

qab qechvam.

> Yes, that's right, Proechel's little publicationqoq, because so many people
> are attracted to his ideas for Klingon. He teaches it and offers gimicks and
> corny little things, and the KLCamp and the Fair and what-not. 

The following is merely an opinion, though a strong one:

Glen also stuck David Barron for a lot of money, accepting
merchandise from him, selling it and keeping all the money AND
THEN GLEN TREATENED TO SUE DAVID OVER THE DISPUTE!  

David similarly made a bold attempt to promote Klingon with the
proposed Boise Seminar. The idea folded and David took it in
the shorts at least as badly as Glen, but he was much more
honest in his dealings when he faced the burden of his debts.

While Glen manages to get good publicity for the Klingon
language movement, the fact is, he has bad theories, teaches
bad Klingon, abuses the movement in a vain attempt at what
turns out to be a bad business venture and generally sets
himself at odds with the rest of the movement any chance he
gets. His only apparent interest in the language is to find a
relm where he can be the center of the universe, and perhaps
make a few bucks in the process.

In short, he has no honor.

There. I said it.

> He may not be
> as skilled in the language as he thinks yet, but many beginner's who want to
> learn go to him, because he's willing to teach, and not just throw high-brow
> linguistic jargon all over everyone. 

I don't see Krankor or most of us here particularly guilty of
this. If this is so, it would be more helpful to point out the
places where this happens and respond perhaps in a fashion
similar to ~mark's recent posts. (For the non-jargon speakers:
[followed by a restatement of the previous text in words that
fail to alienate those who don't speak linguistic jargon.]

Nick lays on the jargon from time to time, but then, that's
what Nick does, and he does so proudly. The fact is that many
people here work on different levels. If anything, as you've
suggested, the list has recently focussed on beginners to the
exclusion of those capable of conversation in Klingon. So how
do we stop everyone skilled from disappearing, like Krankor,
while we eliminate all jargon and make ourselves universally
accessible?

I think we should admit that the average US citizen doesn't
WANT access to tlhIngan Hol. Most of us here are, well,
unusual. Last night, someone asked me, "Is there anything you
DON'T do?" She was referring to the conversation in which it
was revealed that I play classic guitar, electric bass,
percussion and I've built a Harpsichord, hammered dulcimer and
electric guitar from kits, that I'm a rock climber, I know some
sign language and oh, by the way, I speak Klingon. I didn't
even mention that I have studied a little martial arts, am
trained in CPR, I like to build woodworking (especially stuff
with dovetail joints). I tend to like to do stuff. I am not a
couch potato. In this regard, I am unlike many US citizens.

So why should be be trying to teach couch potatos how to speak
Klingon?

Oh, and as for cartoons, Lawrence may not think them suitable
for HolQeD (since he is trying to make it a credible scholarly
publication), but I think that WWW.KLI.ORG would LOVE to have
some. (Then again, maybe Lawrence would love to have them in
HolQeD. He can speak for himself.)

> If we're smart (we are, aren't we) we'll
> get under the skin of the ILS and get our hand in his glove to see what we
> can stir up. Good will come of this, I promise. And has it occured to anyone
> that maybe Glen is broke or about to broke if he paid off the KLCamp debt
> himself? If not, I don't understand why he's pleading for donations, other
> than he's stingy. No, that's not true. He did the Camp for us, and we didn't
> respond wholeheartedly enough. Or perhaps he put his expectations too high in
> the outcome. Or whatever.

Or maybe he has no honor.

> But this comic strip is imesho a good idea as a down-to-earth teaching tool.

Agreed.

> I think I've rambled enough. If you're still reading, you have my humblest
> apologies and thanks.
> 
> Guido
 
No need to apologize. Your perspective is valued here. I also
really enjoy reading your Klingon. I still think it is the most
clearly expressed since Krankor (this said with no intent to
insult anyone else; Guido is simply talented and he speaks in a
way well tuned to the way I hear/read.).

charghwI'


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