tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 26 10:10:06 1994

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Re: vay' and lu'



According to Jeremy Cowan:
> 
> On Fri, 23 Dec 1994, Marc 'Doychlangan' wrote:
> > paq vIlaD 		I read the/a book
> > paq vIlaDlu'		s.o reads the book/the book is read
> > paq vIlaDqang		I am willing to read the book
> > paq vIlaDqanglu'	s.o. is willing to read the book
> > 			*the book is willing to be read
> 
> The vI- should not be on the second and third sentences, right?

Ummm. Make that second and FOURTH.

> Looking at this brings an interesting question to mind.  Both versions of 
> the translation for the last sentence are important.  Here, it is 
> non-sense, but there are instances in which you need both.  ~mark says 
> that both are correct, but others continue to argue the point.  To those 
> who argue, I would like to hear your ideas on translating the following 
> sentences.
> 
> If the weapon is fired (if one fires the weapon), one is willing to kill.

I think the best translation is:
HoHqang nuH baHbogh vay''e'.

Trying to use the tools you want used, I'd say:
nuH baHlu'chugh vaj HoHqang vay' 'e' toblu'.

> If surrender is refused (if one refuses to surrender), one is willing to 
> be killed.

jeghlu'Qo'chugh vaj HoHqanglu'.

If you don't accept that {-lu'} transfers volition to the
object, then the closest I can come to saying this
unambiguously is:

jeghlu'Qo'chugh vaj Heghqanglu'.

Notice that I have to change the verb so it is intransitive so
there is no ambiguity. If I didn't have that option, I'd be
pressed to:

jeghlu'Qo'chugh vaj vay' HoHlu' 'e' lajlu'.

That's a royal mess, as far as I'm concerned. It works, but it
is not pretty. Mixing two different indefinite entities makes
it all so vague.

> > chen tIjwI'ghom		the/a boarding party takes shape
> 
> A passive verb.  Great!

Good insight. I always knew there was something about the lone
verb {chen} (which does not exist in canon usage) that made it
different, but I had never put my finger on it.

> janSIy  }}:+D>

charghwI'
-- 

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