tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Apr 12 22:42:30 1994

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Re: {lab} vs. {lI'} in ST3

> charghwI'vo':
> 
> >Valkris: {HablI' Su' lab'egh} [subtitle: Ready to transmit.]
> >Lip movement mapping: Habli' - Ready, Su' - to, lab'egh - transmit. 
> >...A more literal translation would be, "The transmitter is ready to
> >transmit itself."

Qanqorvo': 
> I'm unconvinced.  It sure sounded like labbeH to me, and I'm
> reluctant to give up on that cuz it's the only canonical usage of
> -beH that I'm aware of.

charghwI'vo':
     I had not considered that. Excellent possibility, though it makes the
grammar even weirder. Since this is a backfit to match English lip movements,
that's quite possible. We then have the exclammatory "Ready!" tossed randomly
into the middle of a sentence that otherwise means, "The transmitter is ready
to send." I like this. I accept that the verb is {labbeH} and not {lab'egh},
though, admittedly, the two would sound very much alike (especially from the
lips of this particular actress). Thank you for this correction.

     Then again, maybe it's {HablI' SulabbeH}.... NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! That's
even weirder. If she were saying it to the transmitter, and it were plural,
then maybe. I don't think so.

> >    The point of this is that Valkris is speaking and she is 
> >about to upload/send her information to Kruge. She uses the 
> >verb {lab}.

Qanqorvo':
> Ok...

charghwI'vo':
> >    Two lines later, Kruge commands his communications officer 
> >to download/receive the data:
> >
> >Kruge: De' yIlI' [Transmit data.]

Qanqorvo':
> Ok, this is the line I had forgotten.  Unfortunately, I'm not so
> sure it is too illuminating.  Again, I'm unconvinced by the
> argument.  Oh, the transcription is fine, what I feel is up in the
> air is:  to whom is this order being given?  I had always thought he
> was ordering Valkris, not his communications officer.  If he's
> ordering Valkris, then we know basically nothing, and it looks most
> strongly like they (lab and lI') are pretty synonymous.  On the
> other hand, if he is indeed ordering his own officer, you have a
> case.  I still haven't gone back and watched the tape again, I have
> been quite remiss.

charghwI'vo':
     My experience is that most data transmissions occur after the sender
announces that it is in a ready state and the receiver initiates the
transmission. The conversation between Valkris and Kruge followed this
pattern, if Kruge was talking to his communications officer. If he was
talking to Valkris, then the sender both announced it was prepared to send
and initiated the transmission, though the receiver never really expressed
readiness to receive in the normal sense of the word. I thought he was
talking to Valkris initially as well, but on further thought it made less and
less sense. He said, {De' yIlI'... DaH!}. That simply makes a lot more sense
if it is said to a crew member.

Qanqorvo':
> But in any case, if it is indeed the case that he is talking to his
> officer, and therefore lI' means to upload/receive, then the TKD
> definition of "transmit data (to a place)" is wholly bogus.  There's
> absolutely NO way to derive upload/receive from that definition.

     Very nearly so, but I think I've come to understand Okrand's perspective
on this. It matches his definitions for {jol} and {Qol}. If the transmission
is coming TO ME, then it is {lI'}. If the data is being transmitted FROM ME,
then it is {lab}. It is poorly expressed, this is true, but the only place we
have these verbs in use in canon is ST3, and if you accept that they almost
certainly (through the use of "to" and "from") mean DIFFERENT things, then
{lI'} needs to mean "receive" and {lab} needs to mean "send". It is
COMPLETELY impossible to construe a plausable reversal of these definitions.
 
> Oh, and for the record:  At least here in the datacomm world,
> "download" generally means to send and "upload" to receive.
> charghwI' (and possibly others) had it the other way around, though
> the usage is not strict and, lacking context, the potential for
> confusion is large.
>                 --Krankor

     Au contraire, mon capitan. I download a file from a BBS to my PC. By
doing so, I am receiving the file. I upload a file from my PC to a BBS. In
doing so, I am sending the file. Since my Concise Oxford Dictionary is not
new enough for this entry, I pulled out my PC Magazine and looked up the
article on this month's utility. In the sidebar, it says, "You can download
this month's utility, free of charge..." The term, as I understand it, comes
from the host/terminal model where the host is held on high, so anything sent
from a lowly terminal (where the people are) to the almighty host are, of
course, sending the file UP. Anything flowing from the celestial host to the
humble terminal (where the people are) is sending the file DOWN.


charghwI'

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